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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If they are reaping a grossly disproportionate amount of benefits from society, then isn't it fair that they be expected to contribute accordingly?
    On the one hand, the money these rich people are getting is not a handout. Your statement is only fair if the rich people in question were given the money, not if they worked for it.

    On the other hand, the government has been redistributing wealth for a good while now. It's about time it trickled down for once instead of up.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    When they come at us with the carbon credit taxes (and they paved the way for this with provisions put into the bailout bill, I'll look for the specific section), I'm flat out refusing to have any part of it. Throw me in jail, I wouldn't care.
    The US has had emissions trading for sulfur since 1990. Admittedly, it's much simpler than for carbon but it was successful in reducing sulfur emissions from coal-fired power stations, and as far as I'm aware, it had little to no impact on your economy.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Show me a system that hasn't eventually stopped working.

    I beleive the definition of middle class is wrong. No one making $150k with a family is on easy street and could never be described as "never having to work for their wealth." There are many people who fall in this category --- espcially counting both partners. This would be middle to upper managament and successful salespeople of most companies (big and small). If you make $250k a year you pay $90k in taxes. It is as absurd to call this group rich and tax them as such as it is to call anyone in this country poor compared to the world standard.

  4. #54
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If they are reaping a grossly disproportionate amount of benefits from society, then isn't it fair that they be expected to contribute accordingly?
    Capitalists are not parasites. People who operate businesses to make money earn every damned penny of it.

    You should try starting your own company sometime and see exactly how easy it is to reap that "grossly disproportionate share of benefits from society."

  5. #55
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    ^Rock on Oberon

    I left the whole risk/reward, job creation out of my post because I didn't want to dilute my point. Brava.

    These same parasites are the ones who hire lawn services, childcare workers, painters, piano teachers, tutors. Continue to put the squeeze on anyone above $150k and under $500k (roughly) and watch the effect.

  6. #56
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    The basic problem with the idea of wealth redistribution is that wealth is not "distributed" in the first place.
    I don't wanna!

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Without redistribution of wealth Capitalism will eventually stop working.
    I'd like to see you prove this, because I don't think this is the case, at all.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    No. Just about every socialized program we've ever had has a similar effect. It's a part of human nature my friend.
    Social policy which rewards people for doing nothing useful will fail. Status quo is a good example. We blindly allow the obscenely rich to use their influence to grab an even larger slice of the pie.

  9. #59
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Social policy which rewards people for doing nothing useful will fail. Status quo is a good example. We blindly allow the obscenely rich to use their influence to grab an even larger slice of the pie.
    How do we do that?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #60
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    On the other hand, the government has been redistributing wealth for a good while now. It's about time it trickled down for once instead of up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I don't see it as fair, no. After a certain point, wealth distribution is inherently UNfair. It starts to become a penalty for success. Since when did this country ever guarantee that we'd all get to enjoy a relatively equal amount of financial success? What's guaranteed is the opportunity to work for it. Just as the Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, but rather the pursuit of it.
    Penalty for success? But then when the system becomes rigged so that people end up working hard, yet still struggling ridiculously (It's not simply "poor nonworking welfare recipients vs $100,000-as-'rich' families" anymore!), while those at the top are frequently enjoying stuff like $89,000 pheasant hunts, even while the companies and the whole economy crash, and then telling everyone else that there's no money left, they have to both cut jobs and quality, raise prices and outsource, yet they still keep everything they have and increase it.
    Then, conservative and libertarian rhetoric says "well, they're simply being rewarded for their hard work; do you want to penalize them for that"? Much of middle class America bought it for nearly 30 years; but never stopped to think that don't they work hard too? Why should the CEO's (as well as sports and entertainers) make hundreds times more than they do (and it wan't like that in the past). But no; all fingers were pointed at the 'undeserving' welfare recipient eating up their tax money that was complained about until it was finally "reformed". But the money would eventually continue to get tighter.

    I think it's finally time to take a hard look at capitalism as it has been practiced in recent decades. It's like a dog-eat-dog Darwinistic "jungle" system. Like companies questioned on executive salaries all say "we have to pay them that much, else they'll go somewhere else". Yet how did the "competitive" amount get so high in the first place? Are they working hundreds of times more than everyone else, or their forbears did in the past, now?
    Those people do not care about you, your interests, or "America". Giving them more won't necessarily mean they will share more, as we see now. Yeah; it's like they say; penalize them and raise their taxes, and they'll just flee elsewhere. Other countries, if necessary. So we have to either allow them to milk us dry, or they will leave and we'll still suffer. They really got us by the throat, don't they? But something seems wrong with that to me. (Anyone see the "Zeitgeist" movie series? They really had some great points that this is just a new slave system, with the "corporatocracy" as the new "emperor". Too bad they trash religion along with it, but we Christians and others did that to ourselves by supporting the corrupt system and using God to control others into following it).

    So I think we all need to become more aware and then think of a better solution. It's true that just getting the government to control, and "redistribute" money like that won't work. (For one thing, the government is yet another system of organizations with their own CEO's and control over finance. They're pretty much all the same to me). But just constantly hashing out the negative effects of "redistribution" or other supposed forms of "socialism", and assuming that the status quo is the way it has to be; or even the best way (and then even standing up for what's "fair" or "unfair" for those at the top--[the real] poor persecuted victims, as we've been hearing! --and then going as far as to try to give them more money and power) will only allow things to get worse for us. Again, everyone else works hard too, and do not have all the comforts, freedoms and leisure of those with all the money.

    So with the election of Obama, we have truly reached a great milestone. I would hope that those who have still been complaining about racial inequality will realize (Like both Malcolm and Martin did in their final years) that economy is the new discrimination. It was originally drawn along the lines of race, and it may still look like a racial divide, because of the fact that minorities have had to travel further to move up. Yet the real force of division now is money, whichever racial group member may have it or not have it.
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