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  1. #41
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiL View Post
    Hmm, if that's the case, I am low class...


    Anyway, can anyone tell me what about Obama's proposed tax alterations is unprecedented? What is it that's making everyone cry "socialism" all the sudden?
    Some examples:
    Single provider health insurance (nationalizing insurance)
    Removing the cap on Social Security payroll taxes (SS was not meant to be redistributive, but doing this would drive it way down the road in that direction).
    Increasing the capital gains tax.
    Increasing the tax rates by not extending the Bush tax cuts.
    Increasing the taxability of other types of passive type income - more technical info can be provided if needed.
    A promised tax cut that is actually a check mailed to people who pay no taxes.
    Talk in a congressional hearing to nationalize 401(k)s (not in Obama's plan, but being discussed among Democrats in congress)

    All of the above are specifically targeted to take from one group to give to another.

    That is why it is so important to define the middle class. The shrinking middle class is bandied about as a tragedy, but no one agrees on the definition. Kyuuei is right. She and her family are just the kind of middle class members we want and need and she they are getting the shaft in the name of saving the middle class. Also, it is completely unclear how to weight both partners working plus child care / numbers of members of the household. Plus should you not be considered middle class if you have a cell phone and a plasma TV?

    Not to mention that the $250k number jumped around a bit at the end there making a cameo as $200k and then as $150k.

  2. #42
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    That is why it is so important to define the middle class. The shrinking middle class is bandied about as a tragedy, but no one agrees on the definition. Kyuuei is right. She and her family are just the kind of middle class members we want and need and she they are getting the shaft in the name of saving the middle class. Also, it is completely unclear how to weight both partners working plus child care / numbers of members of the household. Plus should you not be considered middle class if you have a cell phone and a plasma TV?

    Not to mention that the $250k number jumped around a bit at the end there making a cameo as $200k and then as $150k.
    The middle class shrinking is about the distribution of money. The fear is that there is social segmentation going on, where a sort of bimodal division starts to form. This is indicative of "haves and have nots", for a lack of better terms.

    Anything above 150k is not middle class, however, by any definition of it (HINC-06--Part 1 )

    Far as I know, the reversal and increases in taxes target well above anything that could be called middle class, and most of the middle class will see a marginal decrease in taxes spent, while those in lower classes will see a moderate rebate scheme. Additionally, the hope is that he'll make progress in the social areas, meaning that the indirect "tax" on poorer people due to a lack of bargaining power (especially medical) will have a net economic benefit.

    *shrug* I know, I know. Socialism bad. Capitalism good. Not much point really talking about this, is there?

  3. #43
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    What is so scary about the concept of wealth redistribution? No one worth listening to would advocate taking money from those who work hard and handing it out to lazy bums. That would take away the motivation to produce.

    The objective is to target the extremes. Is it so terrible to require those who never had to work for their wealth to share more with those who do?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What is so scary about the concept of wealth redistribution? No one worth listening to would advocate taking money from those who work hard and handing it out to lazy bums. That would take away the motivation to produce.

    The objective is to target the extremes. Is it so terrible to require those who never had to work for their wealth to share more with those who do?
    The problem is that these programs never work as intended. They're wasteful and reduce the incentive to be a productive member of society. Obama will put us on a path where success and failure yield the same result.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    What is so scary about the concept of wealth redistribution? No one worth listening to would advocate taking money from those who work hard and handing it out to lazy bums. That would take away the motivation to produce.

    The objective is to target the extremes. Is it so terrible to require those who never had to work for their wealth to share more with those who do?
    I just don't understand the concept of requiring one segment of the population to pay a grossly disproportionate amount of taxes, no matter who would benefit.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The problem is that these programs never work as intended.
    The same can be said for status quo. The intent is for everyone to be given a fair chance to prosper, but that is not the case.

    They're wasteful and reduce the incentive to be a productive member of society. Obama will put us on a path where success and failure yield the same result.
    Only if taken to the extreme. A limited implementation would not have that effect.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I just don't understand the concept of requiring one segment of the population to pay a grossly disproportionate amount of taxes, no matter who would benefit.
    If they are reaping a grossly disproportionate amount of benefits from society, then isn't it fair that they be expected to contribute accordingly?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post


    Only if taken to the extreme. A limited implementation would not have that effect.
    No. Just about every socialized program we've ever had has a similar effect. It's a part of human nature my friend.

  9. #49
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Without redistribution of wealth Capitalism will eventually stop working.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  10. #50
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If they are reaping a grossly disproportionate amount of benefits from society, then isn't it fair that they be expected to contribute accordingly?
    I don't see it as fair, no. After a certain point, wealth distribution is inherently UNfair. It starts to become a penalty for success. Since when did this country ever guarantee that we'd all get to enjoy a relatively equal amount of financial success? What's guaranteed is the opportunity to work for it. Just as the Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, but rather the pursuit of it.

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