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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    Does anyone feel they can define the middle class?
    In terms of income (the reference to McCain would be)? Probably use quartiles. That's normally close to what is done.

    (I think that'd be about 35k-95k in the states IRC)

  2. #22
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    Thank you for posting this topic. The more people who speak up, the better.

    When they come at us with the carbon credit taxes (and they paved the way for this with provisions put into the bailout bill, I'll look for the specific section), I'm flat out refusing to have any part of it. Throw me in jail, I wouldn't care.

    Sneaky: Current credit bailout bill contains carbon tax provisions!


    SEC. 116. CERTAIN INCOME AND GAINS RELATING TO IN
    DUSTRIAL SOURCE CARBON DIOXIDE TREATED AS QUALIFYING INCOME FOR PUBLICLY TRADED PARTNERSHIPS.

    5 (a) IN GENERAL.—Subparagraph (E) of section
    6 7704(d)(1) (defining qualifying income) is amended by in7
    serting ‘‘or industrial source carbon dioxide’’ after ‘‘tim8
    ber)’’.
    9 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made by
    10 this section shall take effect on the date of the enactment
    11 of this Act, in taxable years ending after such date.
    12 SEC. 117. CARBON AUDIT OF THE TAX CODE.
    13 (a) STUDY.—The Secretary of the Treasury shall
    14 enter into an agreement with the National Academy of
    15 Sciences to undertake a comprehensive review of the Inter16
    nal Revenue Code of 1986 to identify the types of and
    17 specific tax provisions that have the largest effects on car18
    bon and other greenhouse gas emissions and to estimate
    19 the magnitude of those effects.
    20 (b) REPORT.—Not later than 2 years after the date
    21 of enactment of this Act, the National Academy of
    22 Sciences shall submit to Congress a report containing the
    23 results of study authorized under this section.
    24 (c) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.—There is
    25 authorized to be appropriated to carry out this section
    26 $1,500,000 for the period of fiscal years 2009 and 2010.

  3. #23
    Senior Member MissMurder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It'd be nice to hold off on the propaganda and grousing until we actually see something.
    Power is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible.
    Youtube - Oversensitive Witches
    Scary Bedtime Prayer

  4. #24
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Interesting. Raising capital gains tax not for the purpose of revenue, but for "fairness."
    Allocation of tax burden is complicated. First you must agree on how the burden should be shared (what does it even mean to pay an even share?) and then you must devise ways to collect fairly. We should tax consumption, but then this would unnecessarily impact consumer spending, which accounts for 70% of GDP.

    1. Percentage-based flat tax might be sensible if the more wealthy were not so much more adept at avoiding taxes. Do you take a percentage of assets or income? What is income? Through the use of cash gifts, deductions, corporations, foundations, asset transfers, etc. it is so easy to hide income and assets and to shield them from taxation. I could probably get my total tax burden down to about 10% if I were serious about it.

    2. The cost of living is not flat for everyone. A $100 bag of groceries is more burdensome to a family living on $20k a year versus a family living on $200k a year. Yet, does the more wealthy family pay the same flat percentage for groceries? If things were based on sharing the burden on a percentage basis, maybe the more wealthy family should pay $1000 for the same basket of groceries. Obviously, this does not make sense. But this is the type of benefit you receive from being wealthy. The burden of living is greater on those on the bottom run of the economic ladder.

    These are not simple issues. I actually think the current system does a fairly adequate job.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #25
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    In terms of income (the reference to McCain would be)? Probably use quartiles. That's normally close to what is done.

    (I think that'd be about 35k-95k in the states IRC)
    What are the quartiles? How does the quartile handle single earner or double earner families?

    New question: why are they a working family and a family with income of $150k not?

  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    What are the quartiles?
    I can't remember exactly. Something like the 35-95k range. Census would have the data if you are curious.

    How does the quartile handle single earner or double earner families?
    It's based of household income, IRC. Of course, it can be cut in different ways.

    New question: why are they a working family and a family with income of $150k not?
    Working family? The reason the 150k is not middle class is because they aren't part of the middle income range (by population of earners).

  7. #27
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I can't remember exactly. Something like the 35-95k range. Census would have the data if you are curious.



    It's based of household income, IRC. Of course, it can be cut in different ways.



    Working family? The reason the 150k is not middle class is because they aren't part of the middle income range (by population of earners).

    But they still work and just as hard as everyone else.

  8. #28
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    But they still work and just as hard as everyone else.
    Probably (or harder, quite likely). But I'm not sure how this relates to middle class demographics. I wouldn't say there is a huge gap between the bottom and top quartiles in terms of effort... right down to the tail ends, where you have playboys and bums at opposite spectrums.

    Granted, the tails aren't identical, but given the still large population below and above the "middle", I'd guess it is pretty similar.

    I think the better analogy to use is - "what happens if a couple earning 34,000 can't make ends meet and the wife goes back to work part time. Did they become middle class just because she earns 10,000 a year?". That's harder to answer.

    The central point to the middle class is, however, respective purchasing power/earning power. How it is spent, or the needs of the household, don't factor in.

  9. #29
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    electionmarket.jpg

    The market should know what's good for it, right? Obama gets elected, and when stocks open on Nov. 4th, the market immediately dropped 154 points and closed nearly 500 points below the value it ended at on the previous day.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    electionmarket.jpg

    The market should know what's good for it, right? Obama gets elected, and when stocks open on Nov. 4th, the market immediately dropped 154 points and closed nearly 500 points below the value it ended at on the previous day.
    That was expected. People need to look up how government intervention (socialist~fascist policies and the like) so horribly damaged the recovery process during the great depression, and prolonged it much more than it would've otherwise been. I believe UCLA recently came out with a study that proved just that. The markets know this.

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