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  1. #251
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    They did such a good job with Enron, why not.

    Like that proves anything.

  2. #252
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    They did such a good job with Enron, why not.

    Like that proves anything.
    Enron wasn't nationalized, Amtrak was. Try harder.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #253
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    That was my point genius. I could've mentioned the failure of any big, 'not-nationalized' corporation (particularily natural monopoly corporations, which have a high incidence of price-gouging).
    I really get sick of reading one-liners from people who think they're so damn smart just because they can pull some little faux-economics one-liner out of thier ass in response to what I write.

  4. #254
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    That was my point genius. I could've mentioned the failure of any big, 'not-nationalized' corporation (particularily natural monopoly corporations, which have a high incidence of price-gouging).
    I really get sick of reading one-liners from people who think they're so damn smart just because they can pull some little faux-economics one-liner out of thier ass in response to what I write.
    Try to not take this so personally.

    You would have been better off responding with a nationalized company that has been successful. That would have made your argument much stronger. Mentioning Enron doesn't support your point, at all. There have been plenty of non-nationalized companies that have succeeded and failed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #255
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    I think that at some point during it's rapid development, South Korea either nationalized it's steel industry or had a State owned steel company competing with other steel companies (sort of like the setup we have with the postal service or weather prediction in the United States). Oh, and there's your example. I would consider the National Weather Service an incredible success. Also healthcare programs in European countries, Singapore Airlines (sort of), The British Steel industry (in recent history), and the Tennesee Valley Authority just to name a few.
    As I said, the general theory about state ownership is it makes sense for services that would be monopolized by corporations if they provided them, I'll add that I think it makes sense to at least provide a state enterprise for services that should be available to everyone and where corporations providing the same service would just serve rich people (i.e education). And even then, there's also the option of creating a state owned enterprise just for the purpose of having it compete with inneficient corporations. (if all scientific research done in america was done by corporations for a percieved corporate incentive, we would be reading the old farmer's almanac for weather forecasts)

    See, I did some real reasearch, and have actually read about this stuff in the past. I don't like when I read responses that suggest that someone hasn't put nearly as much mental effort into looking at an issue as I have.

  6. #256
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I think that at some point during it's rapid development, South Korea either nationalized it's steel industry or had a State owned steel company competing with other steel companies (sort of like the setup we have with the postal service or weather prediction in the United States). Oh, and there's your example. I would consider the National Weather Service an incredible success. Also healthcare programs in European countries, Singapore Airlines (sort of), The British Steel industry (in recent history), and the Tennesee Valley Authority just to name a few.
    As I said, the general theory about state ownership is it makes sense for services that would be monopolized by corporations if they provided them, I'll add that I think it makes sense to at least provide a state enterprise for services that should be available to everyone and where corporations providing the same service would just serve rich people (i.e education). And even then, there's also the option of creating a state owned enterprise just for the purpose of having it compete with inneficient corporations. (if all scientific research done in america was done by corporations for a percieved corporate incentive, we would be reading the old farmer's almanac for weather forecasts)

    See, I did some real reasearch, and have actually read about this stuff in the past. I don't like when I read responses that suggest that someone hasn't put nearly as much mental effort into looking at an issue as I have.
    You could have just mentioned the Federal Reserve System. That would have been far more applicable than anything you mentioned, since they're already involved in banking. And the Fed been a smashing success, hasn't it?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #257
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

    (supports your point, not mine)

    I do wonder how many of these banks were nationalized in response to similar financial crisis. If it's a lot, then of course the GDPs of those countries would be growing slower following a financial crisis.

    A much better study would compare different intervention strategies following financial collapses.

    ScienceDirect - European Journal of Operational Research : Efficiency of banks in a developing economy: The case of India

    here's an interesting one (that measures a much better causal factor)

    Seriously, I would just appreciate if you just took back that stupid AMTRAK remark.

  8. #258
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    How about just pasting the article. I'm not going to sign up for an account.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #259
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    oh oops. I can read the thing using my colleges online library resources.

    The first article supports your view (sort of) with a weak correlation between bank nationalization and slower growth in GDP.

    This article: ScienceDirect - European Journal of Operational Research : Efficiency of banks in a developing economy: The case of India

    just notes that:

    "The study shows that the mean efficiency score of Indian banks compares well with the world mean efficiency score and the efficiency of private sector commercial banks as a group is, paradoxically lower than that of public sector banks and foreign banks in India."

    as I said, a much better causal indicator if there were any.

  10. #260
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Really, the burden should be on you to prove that State Owned Enterprises or State Owned banks inevitably fail, which is obviously such a false thing to believe

    So just take back your amtrak remark. Admit that it was a cheap shot, and doesn't prove anything

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