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  1. #231
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    You're right. Those aspects of Capitalism are even worse than what I previously mentioned.
    Yeah, those subsistence farmers should have dumped capitalism thousands of years ago. We all know that lifestyle is a consequence of the economic system, not the standard of living.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #232
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Yeah, those subsistence farmers should have dumped capitalism thousands of years ago. We all know that lifestyle is a consequence of the economic system, not the standard of living.
    So you are suggesting that economic system has nothing to do with a person's standard of living?
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  3. #233
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So you are suggesting that economic system has nothing to do with a person's standard of living?
    No, only that initial conditions are not indicative of the system. Capitalism leads to a rise in the standard of living of a population, as a whole. Communism leads to a fall in the standard of living of a population, as a whole.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #234
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, only that initial conditions are not indicative of the system. Capitalism leads to a rise in the standard of living of a population, as a whole. Communism leads to a fall in the standard of living of a population, as a whole.
    It depends on whether you are referring to the mean or the median. If you are referring to the mean then I agree. If you are referring to the median then I disagree. What you are saying sounds good in theory, but it doesn't pan out in practice.

    Things like a shorter work day, higher pay or child labor laws do not come from a laissez-faire philosophy although they clearly increase the standard of living of workers. Pure_mercury also mentioned slavery, which would be included in a pure laissez-fair economy, but is the exact opposite of having a high standard of living. Sharecropping is also a hard way of life, but it is only disadvantageous to the worker and not the owner of the land.

    Pure_mercury basically gave several examples of situations where the workers had really poor standard of living. The people over them had a much better standard of living by comparison, but the workers had a poorer standard of living and little hope of getting out of that situation. In pure laissez-faire Capitalism the many work to give benefit to the few and get little in return.
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  5. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    It depends on whether you are referring to the mean or the median. If you are referring to the mean then I agree. If you are referring to the median then I disagree. What you are saying sounds good in theory, but it doesn't pan out in practice.

    Things like a shorter work day, higher pay or child labor laws do not come from a laissez-faire philosophy although they clearly increase the standard of living of workers. Pure_mercury also mentioned slavery, which would be included in a pure laissez-fair economy, but is the exact opposite of having a high standard of living.
    But you know, the impetus to end slavery in the US came out of deeply religious elements of highly industrialized, highly capitalistic New England. You can't pin the credit for that on communism, or even socialism.

  6. #236
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    It depends on whether you are referring to the mean or the median. If you are referring to the mean then I agree. If you are referring to the median then I disagree. What you are saying sounds good in theory, but it doesn't pan out in practice.
    The mean rises but not the median? That's simply not true. There are many industries you can look at to see examples of this, such as consumer electronics. Big screen televisions, once a luxury, are now affordable for people at almost any income level. Food...do I even need to explain how cheap, abundant food benefits everyone, not just the rich? Technological advances benefit everyone, even the poorest in a society.

    You'll have to provide practical examples, with statistics, if you want to make that last statement stick.

    Things like a shorter work day, higher pay or child labor laws do not come from a laissez-faire philosophy although they clearly increase the standard of living of workers. Pure_mercury also mentioned slavery, which would be included in a pure laissez-fair economy, but is the exact opposite of having a high standard of living. Sharecropping is also a hard way of life, but it is only disadvantageous to the worker and not the owner of the land.
    Higher pay doesn't come about from a laissez-faire philosophy? Are you kidding me? Do you really want to stand behind that statement? And of course child labor laws aren't part of that philosophy. The length of a working day takes longer to change (you have to consider customs), and what is considered "good" is entirely subjective. As technology advances, less time (manual labor) is required to achieve the same amount of production, so a reduction in working hours will naturally occur over time. I think your problem is that it's not fast enough from your subjective viewpoint (you're letting F dominate T).

    Pure_mercury basically gave several examples of situations where the workers had really poor standard of living. The people over them had a much better standard of living by comparison, but the workers had a poorer standard of living and little hope of getting out of that situation. In pure laissez-faire Capitalism the many work to give benefit to the few and get little in return.
    You have such a static view of everything. Capitalism gave individuals the opportunity improve their situation. They went from being sharecroppers to factor workers, from factory workers to office workers, and so on.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #237
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    In saying that "Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure communism" you seemed to be comparing capitalism to communism and saying that it is "just as bad, if not worse". I'm not sure what other point you could have been trying to make. Focasing the issue on the fact that no "pure" capitalist state has ever existed is beside the point.

    I take issue with the idea that capitalsim in general is somehow equal to or comparibly worse than communism. I believe that to be historically flawed logic simply because communism has already proven itself to be a failed form of government, especially in comparison to capitalism which happens to be the underlining economic engine for the most prosperous nations in the world.
    I wouldn't speak this so fast, because it seems to be falling now. It just fell slower than communism. I heard the govt. is printing more dollars for these bailouts, just like I remember hearing the Soviet Union printed more rubles before it fell. and now, the Islamic world (with it's shiny state of Dubai, which seems to be unaffected by the finanial crisis on the rest of the world), is saying the same thing we said as the Soviet empire went down: "You're falling because you're materialistic and not spiritual like us". (Not exact words, but something to that effect was quoted or broadcast somewhere).

    Whenever a handful of people or organizations, be it private or government, concentrate all the wealth, the system will eventually go down. People can't do anything with no money. Again, the money is all going somewhere.
    This is why, as some point out, Capitalism and communism are basically two sides of the same coin. In fact, Communism has been called "state capitalism", and capitalism as it has been practiced here has been called "socialism for the rich".
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  8. #238
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Isn't capitalism rising elsewhere in varying amounts in China, India, Russia and Dubai?
    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Fiver is correct, it is freeing to not have to impress someone, to be accepted for who you really are.

  9. #239
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I wouldn't speak this so fast, because it seems to be falling now. It just fell slower than communism. I heard the govt. is printing more dollars for these bailouts, just like I remember hearing the Soviet Union printed more rubles before it fell. and now, the Islamic world (with it's shiny state of Dubai, which seems to be unaffected by the finanial crisis on the rest of the world), is saying the same thing we said as the Soviet empire went down: "You're falling because you're materialistic and not spiritual like us". (Not exact words, but something to that effect was quoted or broadcast somewhere).
    If what you say is true, capitalism is failing, then the solution is simple. We must abolish free markets.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #240
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    Isn't capitalism rising elsewhere in varying amounts in China, India, Russia and Dubai?
    More or less.

    The defining characteristic, as far as definitions go, is that capitalism means you can own capital - that is, you can own production.

    Most places have realised that services that support people to own production (roads, defense... some include utilities, some include medical care, etc) are net beneficial.

    In plain terms, the goal is to keep incentives (like owning production) and still create the infrastructure to keep it going. On one side, you get too little incentive and the infrastructure is useless, and in the other, production is hampered because the infrastructure isn't there.

    In short, they are asymmetrical in terms of value (capitalism is superior in this regard), but both are inferior in the extreme.

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