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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post

    I am rather proud to have moved to a society that won't let their neighbor go hungry
    Yes, because we'll all just be hungry together.

  2. #182
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a good reference to compare the concerns of small businessmen (Corporations handle things well into the millions and billions... 250k is chump change in comparison.) to the wants and desires of big corporations.
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  3. #183
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    For all of you so concerned that redistribution of wealth for those not very well off is going to destroy motivations and your way of life, would you rather accept the inevitable rise in crime?

    And if the response is that people should then go forth and all carry guns, are you really that savage?

    If corporate business had its way, all jobs would be outsourced. Welfare systems for the poor obviously do not work all that well in motivating people to get on their feet, but the alternative is far more dangerous for society.

    I am rather proud to have moved to a society that won't let their neighbor go hungry
    Crime is everywhere. We could say that making welfare harder to get will make crime rise, we could say cracking down on areas of a city will increase crime in other areas. I fear the day we cater to the people who refuse to be good citizens and do their civil duties just because we, the people, are fearful that they will somehow rise up and defeat us. Anarchy won't succeed.

    Not that I think there's anything savage at all about carrying guns, I don't see the point you were trying to make there I apologize for this as well.

    I think Welfare gives people the opportunity to be lazy, and doesn't at all keep anyone from committing crime because they're never happy with what they have in the first place. Welfare is made for the hands of those who need it on a temporary basis. People spend their whole lives on it, being lousy citizens and stealing from the government without a bit of remorse for it. I think that's just as bad as a crack addict with a habit of stealing.
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  4. #184
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    as opposed to the situation in the states where a select few are trying to take the food from everyone else...

  5. #185
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    For all of you so concerned that redistribution of wealth for those not very well off is going to destroy motivations and your way of life, would you rather accept the inevitable rise in crime?
    Yes. It wouldn't be nearly as bad as the drug war we already have going on. While there might be a temporary increase in non-violent crimes, it would be far better for society, in the long run.

    And if the response is that people should then go forth and all carry guns, are you really that savage?
    Huh?

    If corporate business had its way, all jobs would be outsourced. Welfare systems for the poor obviously do not work all that well in motivating people to get on their feet, but the alternative is far more dangerous for society.
    Wrong. Corporations don't care about outsourcing. They care about costs and value. They outsource because this country has usually made it the most cost effective economic decision.

    People who try to portray corporations as evil are annoying and usually haven't thought things through. You're not one of those, are you?

    I am rather proud to have moved to a society that won't let their neighbor go hungry
    I'd be proud if it was voluntary, but it's not. It's done at gunpoint. Oh...and people still go hungry.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #186
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    as opposed to the situation in the states where a select few are trying to take the food from everyone else...
    Who's taking who's food? No one goes to my house and takes my food. I worked for my money, bought my food, and ate it. I have always helped my close-by neighbors in need, as they have helped us as well. If everyone did this, no one would go hungry. So who are you left with? Those in crisis that need help, and those who steal from those programs set up for those in crisis.

    The only people that are taking food are the very people you're trying to support. If welfare was only used by those who needed it, No one would be hungry period. Taking more of my small business's money to distribute to everyone stealing just so we don't forget those who truly need it is not the proper way to go about things. Instead, acknowledge the fact we both have a common enemy, and go after it that way. THe nice prissy "Let's blanket over the real problem" won't help. It'll only gild what will eventually come crashing down when the money taken runs out.

    The only thing I can see happening is more people taking advantage of unemployment and welfare and social programs because there's more money to be had there now.
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  7. #187
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    For all of you so concerned that redistribution of wealth for those not very well off is going to destroy motivations and your way of life, would you rather accept the inevitable rise in crime?
    The crime rate in the United States fell significantly after Bill Clinton signed the Welfare Reform Act of 1996. There is nothing to suggest that curtailing government redistribution of income would cause a rise in crime. I'd love to hear your argument for that being the case. I am not saying that less people on welfare leads to less crime, but less people on welfare AND more people working surely does. You don't get that by encouraging people not to work.


    And if the response is that people should then go forth and all carry guns, are you really that savage?
    Violent crime has dropped or stayed the same in pretty much every state in the United States that has adopted concealed carry laws. Where is this savagery? Not to mention, we have an explicit right to arm ourselves.


    If corporate business had its way, all jobs would be outsourced. Welfare systems for the poor obviously do not work all that well in motivating people to get on their feet, but the alternative is far more dangerous for society.

    I am rather proud to have moved to a society that won't let their neighbor go hungry

    If ALL jobs were outsourced, then management would be outsourced, too. Besides, private jobs don't belong to the citizens of any one country; they aren't even tangible entities. To have jobs, you need 1) an employer; and 2) employees willing to work for the wages and benefits offered. Look at the auto companies. Toyota and Nissan and Honda are opening factories all over the United States, but GM, Ford, and Chrysler are begging for handouts. The foreign car companies are simply far better-managed than our own, and, frankly, I hope they eat the domestic car companies alive. We have to be consistent: less welfare for poor people who don't want to work, and less welfare for rich wastrels who can't run a company properly.

    Your thinking about the economy seems to be one-dimensional.
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  8. #188
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Crime is everywhere. We could say that making welfare harder to get will make crime rise, we could say cracking down on areas of a city will increase crime in other areas. I fear the day we cater to the people who refuse to be good citizens and do their civil duties just because we, the people, are fearful that they will somehow rise up and defeat us. Anarchy won't succeed.

    Not that I think there's anything savage at all about carrying guns, I don't see the point you were trying to make there I apologize for this as well.

    I think Welfare gives people the opportunity to be lazy, and doesn't at all keep anyone from committing crime because they're never happy with what they have in the first place. Welfare is made for the hands of those who need it on a temporary basis. People spend their whole lives on it, being lousy citizens and stealing from the government without a bit of remorse for it. I think that's just as bad as a crack addict with a habit of stealing.

    If there is no work, and no food, how do you feed your family if the government that guides society cannot supply you with food?

    I'm sorry, but i find the idea of the need to carry a weapon around for personal protection to be the mark of a savage society. I am for the right for citizens to be armed, but seriously, to be armed in the supermarket means you anticipate your nieghbor to cause you harm.

    Take a look at the current financial crisis. I lived in nyc. I know exactly how many assholes fill up that district in manhattan who are robbing the country harder than anyone getting food stamps could hope for.

    Seriously, look at the bailouts happening. Go research what is budgeted for welfare each year. Aside from cars, the US has basically no manufacturing left, and even the big 3 are needing bailout after bail out, and you point your finger at poor people doing the country in?

  9. #189
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    If there is no work, and no food, how do you feed your family if the government that guides society cannot supply you with food?
    1. Go to a food kitchen/charity
    2. Grow your own food
    3. Start your own business (become an economic asset rather than a liability)
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #190
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    If there is no work, and no food, how do you feed your family if the government that guides society cannot supply you with food?

    I'm sorry, but i find the idea of the need to carry a weapon around for personal protection to be the mark of a savage society. I am for the right for citizens to be armed, but seriously, to be armed in the supermarket means you anticipate your nieghbor to cause you harm.

    Take a look at the current financial crisis. I lived in nyc. I know exactly how many assholes fill up that district in manhattan who are robbing the country harder than anyone getting food stamps could hope for.

    Seriously, look at the bailouts happening. Go research what is budgeted for welfare each year. Aside from cars, the US has basically no manufacturing left, and even the big 3 are needing bailout after bail out, and you point your finger at poor people doing the country in?
    "No work" part would the part I'd call bullshit on. There's always work if you're willing to work. You're only limited on what you're willing to do. Don't have work in your town, but refuse to relocate to where there's opportunity? Not my problem.

    And I do consider my neighbors to do me harm. I have plenty of neighbors that have moved into my suburban area which have forced me to lock my doors and windows and carry protection on me.

    I don't think that corporations are innocent of anything. I don't think they should be given ride-offs either. I just don't believe that using corporations in your argument is going to help your point on why it's okay to take other people's money and use it to "ensure no one goes hungry" involuntarily.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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