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  1. #121
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, if the current level of wealth redistribution is what we're talking about, I can live with that. I don't like it, but I can live with it. Let's stand pat and call it even.

    But I gather that that's not exactly what the next administration has in mind.
    Well, not quite the same. I'm not sure how much you would be affected. But lets say its 3% on top of the taxes you earn.

    In other words, if you get hit at 30% marginal, now you get hit with 33% marginal. Say, the top $5,000 of what you earn is what is going to be affected in this change. That means your take home of that portion of your income was 3500 is now 3,333 - or about $167 less under the "PT thinking it out" plan.

    How do you pull back your money to compensate? Drop your income down $5000 gross in order to avoid the loss of $167 on your previous $3500? How do you work out what you would claw back? Does it not hurt you way more than help you? It would seem like additional marginal labour wouldn't be as... motivated, and I agree. I'm just curious about how you see it, from the other side.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, not quite the same. I'm not sure how much you would be affected. But lets say its 3% on top of the taxes you earn.

    In other words, if you get hit at 30% marginal, now you get hit with 33% marginal. Say, the top $5,000 of what you earn is what is going to be affected in this change. That means your take home of that portion of your income was 3500 is now 3,333 - or about $167 less under the "PT thinking it out" plan.

    How do you pull back your money to compensate? Drop your income down $5000 gross in order to avoid the loss of $167 on your previous $3500? How do you work out what you would claw back? Does it not hurt you way more than help you? It would seem like additional marginal labour wouldn't be as... motivated, and I agree. I'm just curious about how you see it, from the other side.
    What's the difference between additional labor and other labor?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #123
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I'd actually rather not pay taxes. At all.
    Neither would I. Why the hell does the government deserve my money? It's armed robbery.

  4. #124
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Neither would I. Why the hell does the government deserve my money? It's armed robbery.
    Do you think you should have any responsibilities as a citizen of your country?

    This is what most countries ask of the residents, I think it's reasonable for the most part:


    Responsibilities of citizenship

    The legally enforceable duties of citizenship vary depending on one's country, and may include such items as:[6]

    * paying taxes (although tourists and illegal aliens also pay some taxes such as sales taxes,etc)
    * serving on a jury
    * serving in the country's armed forces when called upon (in the US even illegal immigrants must serve in case of a draft[7]).
    * obeying the criminal laws enacted by one's government, even while abroad.

    Purely ethical and moral duties tend to include:

    * demonstrating commitment and loyalty to the democratic political community and state
    * constructively criticizing the conditions of political and civic life
    * participating to improve the quality of political and civic life
    * respecting the rights of others
    * defending one's own rights and the rights of others against those who would abuse them
    * exercising one's rights

  5. #125
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Gabe,

    Wealth cannot be redistributed by politicians, because it was never distributed by them in the first place. Goods and services do not emanate from a single source to be distributed, but are created diffusely throughout a polity.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #126
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Do you think you should have any responsibilities as a citizen of your country?

    This is what most countries ask of the residents, I think it's reasonable for the most part:


    Responsibilities of citizenship
    Why is paying taxes a responsibility of citizenship? And why does the government, especially the federal government, deserve my money?

  7. #127
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    He should only raise the taxes of those at the top as much as he has to.
    Obama is a very smart man- he will know what he needs to do.
    The goal is to be in less debt, not to create a socialist society.
    um, he has said that his tax policies are primarily aimed toward the creation of a fairer and more equitable society, not the optimization of government revenues. Watch the video again.

  8. #128
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Why is paying taxes a responsibility of citizenship? And why does the government, especially the federal government, deserve my money?
    Let's take the military for example. Should we not have one? What would stop a country with an organized military from easily taking us over in that case?

  9. #129
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Let's take the military for example. Should we not have one? What would stop a country with an organized military from easily taking us over in that case?
    Yes, that's outlined in the constitution. But here's the thing: the government takes money (by force) for FAR MORE than the common defense. It has overgrown its boundaries.

  10. #130
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Right now we have the largest drop in the markets after an election in HISTORY. The Dow is down 362 now. Obama wants to bankrupt the coal industry, raise capital gains taxes, raise taxes on the rich, and possibly even move the government to take over our 401K's. Jeez.
    Technically, I think that last might just be some of the Democratic leaders in congress (I just read about that in the WSJ today-I wish I could say I was surprised). I don't know that Obama himself has made any suggestions along those lines.

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