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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I'm not well studied in history. The opinions of dead people are of less importance to me than the principles of a "just society".
    And that is a HUGE problem in this country, and one of the major reasons we're going down the path we are now.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, no. What determines what is earned is if someone pays you for performing some type of labor or for your property in some way. This is not a difficult concept. A billionaire spending $35 million on a private plane doesn't hurt ANYONE, and, in fact, helps create jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    My statement is also fair in cases where someone's reward is disproportionately large in relation to the amount of work they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    As determined by whom? If person X has a business agreement with person Y to pay wages A in exchange for labor B, what business is it of you, or government, or anyone else to limit that free exchange?

    I can see how a joint-stock corporation's shareholders might have a valid interest in limiting executive compensation... but that's their business, not yours or mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Who are you to determine that? The only people involved in those decisions should be the employer and the employee.
    So because someone agrees to pay me a certain amount. And then I just decide to double and triple it, and so forth every few years. You say "market value" (influenced by competition) will keep that in check, right? But then all my "competitors" (country club buddies in our private lives, perhaps?) also decide to do the same thing at the same time. So the nonstop raises are "competitive", and there is nowhere else for the consumer to go. His money all goes to me (or the others), an now we can all afford our $35 million private planes (to fly to our $89,000 pheasant hunts, wine tasting classes, mansions all over the world etc). Surely, that money is not "hurting" (coming from) anyone else. There's enough that you all could have just as much, if you all simply stopped being lazy and worked hard, like me. (Maybe this is true, as they are printing more money for the bailouts. --But then I remember that this was exactly what the USSR was doing with the rubles right as their system was falling!) So we just tell you we had to do it because of those rotten liberals who keep raising our and your taxes.

    I know there's no easy way to change this, but it seems with the defenses I see; we're basically willing to sell ourselves into slavery to the "suppliers" if they were to demand that.

    You clearly have some type of misconception about the way market economies work. What DOES upset me is when people (rich or poor) who contribute nothing to society and use the government to keep themselves afloat. That is not what the government is supposed to do, and corporate welfare should outrage everyone.
    Well, all the focus for the last 30 years was that welfare was strictly given to "nonworking lazy minorities" as the only ones "contributing nothing", and there was no concept of "corporate welfare" or undeserving rich. They deserve how ever much they get, however they get it. It's not welfare; they "earned" it just from having their name on a payroll or title deed. That's where this thinking always leads, and voila; look at where we are now.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I was thinking about public property, actually. Parks and the like. *shrug*
    Well, I'm a libertarian. Ever hear the old joke about libertarians?

    Non-libertarian: "Libertarians are the kind of people who would legalize fornication in our public parks!"

    Libertarian: "What do you mean, 'public' parks?!?"
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, all the focus for the last 30 years was that welfare was strictly given to "nonworking lazy minorities" as the only ones "contributing nothing", and there was no concept of "corporate welfare" or undeserving rich. They deserve how ever much they get, however they get it. It's not welfare; they "earned" it just from having their name on a payroll or title deed. That's where this thinking always leads, and voila; look at where we are now.

    It's only welfare if the government gives it to you. If you run a business and makes outrageously large profits, that's fantastic. I am glad that happens. A college friend of mine had a 21st birthday party that I know cost over $80,000. It was a great time. We all had fun, and a DJ and a catering company and some club owners got a bunch of money to provide the good time. There is nothing wrong with that.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So because someone agrees to pay me a certain amount. And then I just decide to double and triple it, and so forth every few years.
    You're going to do that without your employer's consent?

    Good luck with that.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You didn't point a gun at another dog owner and force him to share biscuits. That's the difference.
    Wow, Obama said that huh? I must have missed that sound bite.

    :rolli:
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's only welfare if the government gives it to you. If you run a business and makes outrageously large profits, that's fantastic. I am glad that happens. A college friend of mine had a 21st birthday party that I know cost over $80,000. It was a great time. We all had fun, and a DJ and a catering company and some club owners got a bunch of money to provide the good time. There is nothing wrong with that.
    But the point is, the government is giving it to them, even after they pay themselves all the profit money, while laying people off, cutting quality and raising prices.

    Sure; there may legally be nothing wrong with it. But then do you want them to have all of that, while you end up on the street, and they say you simply must not be working hard enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You're going to do that without your employer's consent?

    Good luck with that.
    I am the employer! And the boards and stockhoders said I could do it, because they knew I would just go somewhere else that would.

    (Now that they see they are being cheated in some of these larger scandals, I have not heard how they are addressing this now).
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But the point is, the government is giving it to them, even after they pay themselves all the profit money, while laying people off, cutting quality and raising prices.

    Sure; there may legally be nothing wrong with it. But then do you want them to have all of that, while you end up on the street, and they say you simply must not be working hard enough?
    No, corporate welfare is wrong. Forcibly taking any money from one person to give it to another is wrong. That's the whole point.


    I am the employer! And the boards and stockhoders said I could do it, because they knew I would just go somewhere else that would.

    (Now that they see they are being cheated in some of these larger scandals, I have not heard how they are addressing this now).
    If the stockholders pay you, that's fine. As long as you don't do something illegal/immoral, like commit fraud, or hide losses in shell companies, or raid pension funds, then you can make $100 trillion for all I care.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Wow, Obama said that huh? I must have missed that sound bite.

    :rolli:

    Try not paying your taxes because you are against welfare or the War in Iraq or holding people prisoner without trials and see what happens.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Wow, Obama said that huh? I must have missed that sound bite.

    :rolli:
    Forced sharing at gunpoint is what "wealth redistribution" means, when it's implemented by government.

    If you don't believe me, just quit paying your taxes for a while and see if people with guns don't come visit you.

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