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  1. #71
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    ah. thats what i thought.

    i wouldn't buy either way, but i would be more likely to for the long term ONLY if toyota management was recruited.
    I would have to disagree - because I believe the factors here are not in management, but intrinsic. Good management would be doing what is already being done, but unfortunately, the overall obligation will always cause these companies to be less efficient (high overhead) due to past obligations.

    They've done a pretty good job closing the gap, but the gap is still estimated at some $500 - $5000 per car. Better than the ~50% efficiency when the markets opened up, but still not quite competitive enough.

    Having said that, the trend would be to buy them, as they are undervalued, but because the fundamentals make them nearly insolvent (past obligations, in my eyes), the market is effectively pricing them right.

  2. #72
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    ^ those intrinsic factors/obligations were mostly management decisions, like an earlier poster pointed out though. not all management would have made those same decisions.

    the argument is over man. i see no reason why anyone would defend the big 3 management. it borders on insanity. and we don't need any more of that here in AMERICA.

  3. #73
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    ^ those intrinsic factors/obligations were mostly management decisions, like an earlier poster pointed out though. not all management would have made those same decisions.

    the argument is over man. i see no reason why anyone would defend the big 3 management. it borders on insanity. and we don't need any more of that here in AMERICA.
    I look forward to your detailed listing of how management failed over the last bit, given that the metrics steadily improved. However, that would be insane, no doubt, and so I shall indeed let you get back to your scapegoating.

  4. #74
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I look forward to your detailed listing of how management failed over the last bit, given that the metrics steadily improved. However, that would be insane, no doubt, and so I shall indeed let you get back to your scapegoating.
    i guess ur mad about the movie Never Forever.

    its a great movie man. ^_^ V

  5. #75
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    ^ those intrinsic factors/obligations were mostly management decisions, like an earlier poster pointed out though. not all management would have made those same decisions.

    the argument is over man. i see no reason why anyone would defend the big 3 management. it borders on insanity. and we don't need any more of that here in AMERICA.
    Management has no defense, but the government does deserve some blame. Tariffs and regulations protected the Big 3 from foreign and domestic competition for so long, they became complacent and fell too far behind. The government created the playing field.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Tariffs and regulations protected the Big 3 from foreign and domestic competition for so long, they became complacent and fell too far behind.
    can you expand on this? it would be much appreciated... if true, i think its a legitimate argument...

  7. #77
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    can you expand on this? it would be much appreciated... if true, i think its a legitimate argument...
    Over-regulation crushes domestic competition. Of course it costs Ford, GM, and Chrysler, but they benefit more by not having to compete with any domestic upstarts. How many auto manufacturers have started up and succeeded in the last 50 years, domestically? Any? Compare that to other industries.

    Tariffs have "protected" domestic automakers from foreign competition because that tariff is passed along to the consumer. Ford has an advantage over Toyota because of this. This allows domestic manufacturers to be less efficient to perform at the same level as foreign manufacturers. Toyota has had to be that more efficient for years just to compete with the Big Three.

    I put protected in quotes because it doesn't really protect anyone. That idea is a farce. The Big Three were allowed (by the market) to make unsound financial decisions (like the UAW contract) because they were playing on an unequal playing field. Over time, those poor decisions have accumulated and you have the situation we're in today. Protectionism eventually destroys the industry it's trying to protect.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #78
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Over-regulation crushes domestic competition. Of course it costs Ford, GM, and Chrysler, but they benefit more by not having to compete with any domestic upstarts. How many auto manufacturers have started up and succeeded in the last 50 years, domestically? Any? Compare that to other industries.

    Tariffs have "protected" domestic automakers from foreign competition because that tariff is passed along to the consumer. Ford has an advantage over Toyota because of this. This allows domestic manufacturers to be less efficient to perform at the same level as foreign manufacturers. Toyota has had to be that more efficient for years just to compete with the Big Three.

    I put protected in quotes because it doesn't really protect anyone. That idea is a farce. The Big Three were allowed (by the market) to make unsound financial decisions (like the UAW contract) because they were playing on an unequal playing field. Over time, those poor decisions have accumulated and you have the situation we're in today. Protectionism eventually destroys the industry it's trying to protect.
    I agree with you that protectionism is generally bad for mature developed countries in the long run, especially in industries based on innovation... I just had no idea it was that protectionist for the big 3 in the us... o_O

  9. #79
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    America is failing? I wonder why? Perhaps a good long look at what is happening in the round global view (ie not just that one continent).

    It seems daft that there's still huge cars charging around the country at really slow speeds pushing out a real stink. It still seems like the general attitude is "well there's plenty more where that came from". It still seems like the aspirations for each individual is that they deserve a large house, a big car and enough electronics to create a sizable brownout. Perhaps the whole dream is dying off because it's not supportable with an increasing population, decreasing resources and ever stronger competition.

    Like the British engineers it seems like you guys need to modernise your way of thinking before you get outstripped.

    Oh and if along the way you could see fit to split M$ into like 6 or so companies each with it's own competing version of Windows then I'd be most grateful
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #80
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I agree with you that protectionism is generally bad for mature developed countries in the long run, especially in industries based on innovation... I just had no idea it was that protectionist for the big 3 in the us... o_O
    Protectionism is bad, in general. If Japan is better at producing automobiles than the US, the US would be better off importing Japanese vehicles and allowing labor and resources to be allocated to industries where the US is more efficient.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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