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  1. #31
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I think he is accurate. (Although I don't know where the optimal inflexion point is, we clearly disagree on where it would, I tend to side with the liberty folk, except in quite a few economic areas.)

    But! He took the talking point from one of the worst recent parties during a time where that exact fear he was using was also used to strip liberties. That's the irony.

    Yes, that is ironic. It's funny: so many politicians on the Right were complete demagogues regarding communism in the 1940s and 1950s, but later documents and testimony proved that there was significant Soviet infiltration of the federal government under the FDR and Truman administrations. They were late to the game, and they often didn't have proof, but they were right and the Left was wrong. Of course, most of their achievements were in eroding civil liberties, not in keeping the country safe. Classic governmental assbackwards-ness.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I think what Risen was TRYING to convey was that American would never go down in a Communist coup or revolution, but that incremental erosion of liberty could happen for a long enough time that the end result could be totalitarianism.
    Precisely. I haven't a clue what everyone else thinks I was trying to say, but I have the idea that it ranges from "He thinks Obama is a communist" to "He is a part of some conspiracy cult out to destroy the left" or something along those lines. It's honestly beyond me to make sense of it since it doesn't even apply.

    The topic still stands, as a testament to what the patiots back then knew, that I believe many these days have forgotten. As George Washington himself put it "Those who trade freedom for more security deserve neither freedom nor security". Likewise, trading our freedoms and liberties for promises of a better tomorrow through whatever extreme means (fascism, socialism, what have you) will never work in our favour.

    I believe there is a great deal at stake in the times we live in. If people don't realize where we come from and where we are headed, then no, I don't have hope. But being able to share the perspective and information with at least one person who may listen to what I have to say and find out more than themselves rather than attempt to attack me with sweetened arrows gives me hope.

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    (U)nderground resistance faction led by Joseph McCarthy?" Really?
    A joke is a joke.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #34
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    looks like this thread is becoming relevant again...

    huge questions about the government stepping in and bailing out Detroit automakers...

    paulson is becoming a de facto central planner, pretty difficult job...

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    An anti-communist in the dept of ag would actually be an interesting thing nowadays.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    ...
    American would never go down in a Communist coup or revolution, but that incremental erosion of liberty could happen for a long enough time that the end result could be totalitarianism. Alarmist? Maybe. Inaccurate? I think not.
    I agree.
    It's like the frog in the pot coming to a slow boil.
    The US seems to be more and more filled with people who want the federal government to pay for everything for them,
    but don't realize the dangers of what they're asking.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And some people vehemently disagree over what would be a pragmatic response.
    Bingo. We have a winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I agree.
    It's like the frog in the pot coming to a slow boil.
    The US seems to be more and more filled with people who want the federal government to pay for everything for them,
    but don't realize the dangers of what they're asking.
    Exactly right. America is resilient because we worked HARD and sometimes took risks. But now everyone is looking for the government to be "mom and dad" and fix their mistakes.

    Did the settlers of the midwest/west rely on this? No. America's strength is its true resilience to survive no matter what happens, and all these bailouts are taking away that American trait and in the big picture (next century), this scares me actually. It is how most civilizations have started their downfall by complacency.

    Are innocent people getting hurt? You betcha. Does it suck. Yes it does. Do we need change? Yes. I agree with "smart" regulation and oversight but neither party is showing me anything beyond what their lobbyists strive for. This auto bailout is a perfect example as it bails out the UAW more then the auto industry. I won't go into detail but compared to our foreign rivals with factories in the US, the big three literally pay DOUBLE for American workers and that business model is UNSUSTAINABLE when it is in the same country. Why else do you think GM was losing money in 2005 when the economy was at the height of the current boom/bubble???

    Think about it. They need to go bankrupt, downsize, and rebuild. Any other option is just extending a broken industry.

  8. #38
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    this bailout is ridiculous.

    the big 3 had many many chances to meet global standards.

    they should just hire the VP of operations at Toyota to take over GM or Chrysler. give the guy millions. its really the only chance they have to turn their ship around. the old ways aren't working, new ways have to be implemented from the top down.

    toyota and honda clearly have success at their US plants producing cars with similiar quality as back in japan. with American workers. so the only difference is the management, not the workers. time to hire toyota managers into the big 3. give the japanese managers blond hair and american names. who the hell cares.

  9. #39
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    this bailout is ridiculous.

    the big 3 had many many chances to meet global standards.

    they should just hire the VP of operations at Toyota to take over GM or Chrysler. give the guy millions. its really the only chance they have to turn their ship around. the old ways aren't working, new ways have to be implemented from the top down.

    toyota and honda clearly have success at their US plants producing cars with similiar quality as back in japan. with American workers. so the only difference is the management, not the workers. time to hire toyota managers into the big 3. give the japanese managers blond hair and american names. who the hell cares.
    This is a complex problem, unfortunately, and the systemic problems and solutions aren't as easily solved as "let them fail".

    The reality, however, is that these companies need to go bankrupt. They made some very bad decisions a long while back, unions have crushed their efficiencies, and they simply need to go away. You'll hear lots of arguments about domestic defense and all that, sure, but in the end, they simply aren't efficient enough to remain around.

    However, the systemic problems are a bit more complicated. The dissolving of these companies during a recession would have a serious ripple effect. The time to retrain and absorb the workers (and the ripple losses) is huge. The economy would shrink dramatically during this time, and the shock itself could be way more dramatic than we'd like.

    A controlled dissolution is required, but the political will required for that is huge, and the US simply doesn't have it. On the plus side, GM and the like are trimming operations quickly and that's a good start. Bailouts might prevent that, and that must be avoided... but it needs to be enough money or contracts to slow down the dissolution (I'm talking over 10 years - not going to happen.)

    It's funny, though. In theory, there should be stabilizers in place to reduce the impact. Welfare benefits, retraining programs, employment insurance, etc. Since the US is so anti-socialist, these policies aren't sufficiently present and it's shocks like this that can not just be bad, but horrific. Instead of adapting those kinds of policies, subsidies are used to deal with the social issues. It doesn't matter if it is subsidising food, rather than providing welfare/basic living standards... or unregulated financial markets being bailed out with government money, there is a cost and balancing factor that is required.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's funny, though. In theory, there should be stabilizers in place to reduce the impact. Welfare benefits, retraining programs, employment insurance, etc. Since the US is so anti-socialist, these policies aren't sufficiently present and it's shocks like this that can not just be bad, but horrific. Instead of adapting those kinds of policies, subsidies are used to deal with the social issues. It doesn't matter if it is subsidising food, rather than providing welfare/basic living standards... or unregulated financial markets being bailed out with government money, there is a cost and balancing factor that is required.
    That's a joke. Aside from the bad management of the company, a great portion of the problem is due to the labor unions themselves sucking money out of the company, particularly in their demands for health care and retirement benefits that the company obviously just couldn't afford; leading to them going bankrupt. Not to mention the attacks they've been making on the auto industry for the green movement. The democrats are sucking at the special interest tit again, and the main reason they'll want to bail out the auto industry is because of the labor unions. In this case, it is government intervention that has, again, pushed capitalism to implode on itself. Rest assured, it will be that much worse if they continue to act like socialists and overstep their bounds by bailing them out. Saying that we need MORE socialism is horribly misguided my friend.

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