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  1. #51
    FigerPuppet
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    Okay. How the hell can you have the political philosophy "Liberal-Socialist"? Those two philosophies are basically polar opposite of each other.

    Later, as more radical philosophers articulated their thoughts in the course of the French Revolution and throughout the nineteenth century, liberalism defined itself in contrast to socialism and communism, although modern European liberal parties have often formed coalitions with social-democratic parties.

    Liberalism favors the limitation of government power except for the purpose of regulating whom is economically advantaged and who is not. Extreme anti-statist liberalism, as advocated by Frederic Bastiat, Gustave de Molinari, Herbert Spencer, and Auberon Herbert, is a radical form of liberalism called anarchism (no state at all) or minarchism (a minimal state, or sometimes called "the nightwatchman state.")[12] Most liberals claim that a government is necessary to protect rights, yet the meaning of "government" can range from simply a rights protection organization to a Weberian state. Recently, liberalism has again come into conflict with those who seek a society ordered by religious values: radical Islamism often rejects liberal thought in its entirety, and radical Christian sects in Western liberal-democratic states especially the US often find their moral opinions coming into conflict with liberal laws and ideals.
    Please, stop modelling the definitions of words because you want them to fit your scare campaigns. I'm talking to the Republican politicians/voters who think "socialist" is a word you use when cussing.

  2. #52
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    WTF is a "liberal conservative"?
    Basically it's a person who adheres to basic Liberal principles such as individual liberty, private property, and democratic government - but thinks that custom and tradition provide a firmer foundation for such than outright Liberalism does.

    Edmund Burke, for example, was a defender of the Whig system set up after the 1688 Glorious Revolution.

    This is contrasted by more hardline conservatives who either believed in an absolute monarchy(like Joseph de Maistre) or more authoritarian forms of government(like Donoso Corts).



    Liberal nationalism lies within the traditions of rationalism and liberalism, but as a form of nationalism it is contrasted with ethnic nationalism. Membership of the civic nation is considered voluntary, as in Ernest Renan's classical definition of the nation as a "daily plebiscite" characterized by the "will to live together".
    That's absolute bullshit. There is no form of nationalism seperate from ethnicity. In fact the constrast between "ethnic" and "civil" nationalism is widely blown out of proportion these days: nationalism by its very nature relies on both ethnic and civil elements.

    I'm utterly shocked that Giuseppe Mazzini isn't even mentioned, since he's perhaps the most famous person associated with the concept of Liberal nationalism.

    National Socialism typically refers to ideologies that promote uniting the working class of a specific ethnic, national, or racial lines into a proletarian nation [1] while opposing capitalism, communism, conservatism, international socialism, liberalism and nations, ethnicities or other groups that are deemed to be repressive of national socialism. This idea was espoused by multiple political movements and leaders, especially in Europe including Enrico Corradini and especially and most predominantly the ideology of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (a.k.a. Nazi Party) led by Adolf Hitler. The form of national socialism utilized by Hitler and groups related to the Nazis are often considered as variants of fascism.
    Only the Strasserite wing of the Nazi Party ever advocated a "Proletarian nation" line, wheras Hitler promoted a "socialism" that encompassed the entire German nation.

    This is also begs the question as to the difference between National Socialism and National Communism - aka National Bolshevism.

  3. #53
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's absolute bullshit. There is no form of nationalism seperate from ethnicity. In fact the constrast between "ethnic" and "civil" nationalism is widely blown out of proportion these days: nationalism by its very nature relies on both ethnic and civil elements.
    I do not agree.

    Nationalism in France isn't based on ethnicity, just as Ernest Renan showed it. Look at the people in Alsace: ethnically speaking, they're southern Germans. But they refused to be Germans, and choose to be French instead. That's how Renan devised his own conception of nationalism, when he noticed this trend.

    ---

    Closer to you, how do you conceive such a thing as "American nationalism", since the US basically are a nation of immigrants? Is there such a thing as "ethnic americans", beside native ones?

    ---

    Maybe we should define what you mean by "ethnicity"?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #54
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Nationalism in France isn't based on ethnicity, just as Ernest Renan showed it.
    But yet many other French nationalists, like Charles Maurras for example, did argue for an ethnic basis of the French identity.

    Here's even what Charles de Gaulle had to say on the issue:

    "It is very good that there be yellow Frenchmen, black Frenchmen, brown Frenchmen. They prove that France is open to all races and that she has a universal mission. But on the condition that they remain a small minority. Otherwise, France would no longer be France. We are after all primarily a European people of the white race, of Greek and Latin culture, and of the Christian faith. Try to mix oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. In a moment they will separate again. Arabs are Arabs and French are French. Do you believe that the French nation can absorb ten million Muslims, who perhaps tomorrow will be twenty million and the day after forty million? If we adopt integration, if all the Arabs and Berbers of Algeria were considered as Frenchmen, what would prevent them from coming to settle in mainland France where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises, but Colombey-les-deux-Mosques!"


    Look at the people in Alsace: ethnically speaking, they're southern Germans. But they refused to be Germans, and choose to be French instead. That's how Renan devised his own conception of nationalism, when he noticed this trend.
    Well Jacques Maritain noted that France, like America, was a "multinational nation" - which is not an oxymoron, a since a nation basically is a community of communities. A Brenton has more in common with sombody from Alsace then they do with an Algerian, even though Algeria was officially part of France for a while.

    Closer to you, how do you conceive such a thing as "American nationalism", since the US basically are a nation of immigrants?
    This was probably best explained by John Jay in Federalist Papers no.2:

    "Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

    This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties."



    Is there such a thing as "ethnic americans", beside native ones?
    Yes, as a matter of fact there are. I'm one of them actually, being Polish-American.

  5. #55
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This was probably best explained by John Jay in Federalist Papers no.2:

    "Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

    This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties."
    uh, no. the early Americans were "attached to the same principles of government" and to a lesser extent had "very similar manners and customs," but they were NOT "descended from the same ancestors, professing the same religion, [and] speaking the same language." The early Americans were extremely religiously diverse, descended from multiple countries with distinct cultural traditions and ethnic identities, and there was actually talk of making German a second official language because it was so common (thankfully that failed, as having the same language is instrumentally very important). John Jay's (limited) contributions are an embarrasment to the Federalist Papers (and no, I hadn't already read this when I made a similar comment on another thread). liberal nationalism is quite distinct from ethnic nationalism.

    And, not to be a dick towards a poster that seems to agree with me on this particular issue, but when did Alsace "choose" to be a part of France? Its my understanding that the inhabitants had no choice but to accept that state of affairs after the World Wars, so they wisely made the best of it (that is not to say that the modern population is not comprised of French patriots-the ancestors of Ira Hayes probably had vastly different opinions of the United States than their valorous descendant, after all).

  6. #56
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    uh, no. the early Americans were "attached to the same principles of government" and to a lesser extent had "very similar manners and customs," but they were NOT "descended from the same ancestors, professing the same religion, [and] speaking the same language." The early Americans were extremely religiously diverse, descended from multiple countries with distinct cultural traditions and ethnic identities, and there was actually talk of making German a second official language because it was so common (thankfully that failed, as having the same language is instrumentally very important).
    Yes I'm all well aware of this, even the Anti-Federalists pointed this out in their writings. However, lets point out that the vast majority of early Americans were of English descent. Germans and Dutch were certainly significant minorities, but overall the population was English.

    You seem to assume that I actually agree with John Jay, which I don't. I was answering Blackmail's question as to how ethnic nationalism can apply to America. Truth be told, I'm not a nationalist for various reasons. Not that I'm against the concept of nations or national identities, far from it, but nationalism imposes a one-dimensional perspective on what is essentially a multi-dimensional concept (ie national and cultural identities).


    liberal nationalism is quite distinct from ethnic nationalism.
    This may interest you:
    "False Opposites in Nationalism: An Examination of the Dichotomy of Civic Nationalism and Ethnic Nationalism in Modern Europe." by Margareta Mary Nikolas

    As the abstract explains, civic and ethnic nationalism only differ in theory but in actual practice "they are collaborators in the journey towards nationhood and in the pursuit of the establishment of a nation-state.

    For nationalism to be successful it must involve an interplay of the principles of both civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism, rather than these components acting as mutually exclusive concepts."

  7. #57
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    Interesting quiz, thanks.

    My #1 is: American ''Liberal''
    My #2 is: Liberal
    My #3 is: Social-Liberal
    My #4 is: Left-wing Neoliberal (Clinton)
    My #5 is: Social Democratic
    My #6 is: Liberal Nationalist
    My #7 is: American ''Conservative''
    My #8 is: Liberal Socialist
    My #9 is: Marxist
    My #10 is: Right-wing Neoliberal (Thatcher)
    My #11 is: Anarcho-Communist
    My #12 is: National Socialist
    My #13 is: Burkean (liberal) Conservative
    My #14 is: Fascist
    My #15 is: Christian Democratic
    My #16 is: Soviet ''Communist''
    My #17 is: Christian Socialist
    My #18 is: Revolutionary Conservative/Monarchist

  8. #58
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    My #1 is: Social-Liberal
    My #2 is: American ''Liberal''
    My #3 is: Liberal
    My #4 is: Social Democratic
    My #5 is: Left-wing Neoliberal (Clinton)
    My #6 is: Anarcho-Communist
    My #7 is: Liberal Socialist
    My #8 is: Marxist
    My #9 is: American ''Conservative''
    My #10 is: Christian Democratic
    My #11 is: Right-wing Neoliberal (Thatcher)
    My #12 is: Burkean (liberal) Conservative
    My #13 is: Liberal Nationalist
    My #14 is: Soviet ''Communist''
    My #15 is: Christian Socialist
    My #16 is: National Socialist
    My #17 is: Fascist
    My #18 is: Revolutionary Conservative/Monarchist (far right)
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #59
    Senior Member locke's Avatar
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    My #1 is: Anarcho-Communist
    My #2 is: Liberal Socialist
    My #3 is: American ''Liberal''
    My #4 is: Social-Liberal
    My #5 is: Christian Socialist
    My #6 is: Social Democratic
    My #7 is: Marxist
    My #8 is: Christian Democratic
    My #9 is: Soviet ''Communist''
    My #10 is: Left-wing Neoliberal (Clinton)
    My #11 is: Burkean (liberal) Conservative
    My #12 is: Liberal
    My #13 is: National Socialist
    My #14 is: Fascist
    My #15 is: Revolutionary Conservative/Monarchist (far right)
    My #16 is: American ''Conservative''
    My #17 is: Liberal Nationalist
    My #18 is: Right-wing Neoliberal (Thatcher)
    I want something much more different
    Not these factories or prisons
    I wish that the Earth was green again
    I wish I had a gun in my hand


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  10. #60
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    My #1 is: American ''Liberal''
    My #2 is: Social-Liberal
    My #3 is: Liberal Socialist
    My #4 is: Social Democratic
    My #5 is: Left-wing Neoliberal (Clinton)
    My #6 is: Anarcho-Communist
    My #7 is: Liberal
    My #8 is: Marxist
    My #9 is: Christian Democratic
    My #10 is: Right-wing Neoliberal (Thatcher)
    My #11 is: American ''Conservative''
    My #12 is: Burkean (liberal) Conservative
    My #13 is: Soviet ''Communist''
    My #14 is: Liberal Nationalist
    My #15 is: Christian Socialist
    My #16 is: National Socialist
    My #17 is: Fascist
    My #18 is: Revolutionary Conservative/Monarchist (far right)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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