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  1. #51
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    As I've said--nobody's stopping anyone from learning culture. But do it on your own time. Want to learn a foreign language? Library. Or college course. Want to read a good piece of lit? Library or Barnes n Noble. Just not in our elementary schools. I'm not saying to squelch it--I'm just saying to move it to something optional for our children.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  2. #52
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Indoctrination is teaching WHAT to think. Education is teaching HOW to think.

    The fact is that right now our public schools are SORELY behind much of the developed world in the way of science and engineering and mathematics. I was recently at the Columbia University engineering career fair and holy shit, there were so many Indians. It sickened me. America was built on engineering. People like Edison and the Wright Brothers and Bill Gates are responsible for so much innovation, and we need to continue that.

    So if we're going to teach more mathematics and science and engineering and economics, something has to go, and that is the arts. Because guess what?

    THE ARTS NEVER GOT ANYONE A GOOD JOB. And it doesn't matter what kind of "intellectualism" you have if you forget it all anyway since it's never applicable to the workplace!
    You're exploring "education" with the same mentality you claim is oppositional to it.

    If your tone were less authoritative, I'd say you were a convincing Absurdist...

  3. #53
    Member Sture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The US will continue to follow Europe on its path toward self destruction.
    hahahahaha, are you serious?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    You're exploring "education" with the same mentality you claim is oppositional to it.

    If your tone were less authoritative, I'd say you were a convincing Absurdist...
    Not at all. Math and the sciences and engineering are not about what to think, but how to think. They are not subjective topics. If the answer is 47.2 m/s and you put 9 m/s, you're wrong. There is no "devil's advocate" in high school math. Your number is correct, or it isn't.

    Literature and the arts can be dabbled in on people's own time. If you want your child to read shakespeare, great. My child shouldn't have to read it if he doesn't want to.

    HOWEVER: my child should not have to pay taxes to help your child on welfare because he or she was too stupid to learn enough science to get any decent-paying job.

    Our school system should be there to train children to have the knowledge base they need to get an excellent degree in college to survive independently. I don't care how noble it is that you're an aspiring artist/actress/author. If you're receiving welfare or aid from government programs because you're poor when you knowingly chose to do something you love instead of something you could survive on, fuck you. You should starve.

    What people choose to do with their lives is their business. However, our schools should at least force them to learn skills applicable to building a base for the real world.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sture View Post
    hahahahaha, are you serious?
    Yes.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #56
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    As I've said--nobody's stopping anyone from learning culture. But do it on your own time. Want to learn a foreign language? Library. Or college course. Want to read a good piece of lit? Library or Barnes n Noble. Just not in our elementary schools. I'm not saying to squelch it--I'm just saying to move it to something optional for our children.
    Bad idea.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #57
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Not at all. Math and the sciences and engineering are not about what to think, but how to think. They are not subjective topics. If the answer is 47.2 m/s and you put 9 m/s, you're wrong. There is no "devil's advocate" in high school math. Your number is correct, or it isn't.

    Literature and the arts can be dabbled in on people's own time. If you want your child to read shakespeare, great. My child shouldn't have to read it if he doesn't want to.

    HOWEVER: my child should not have to pay taxes to help your child on welfare because he or she was too stupid to learn enough science to get any decent-paying job.

    Our school system should be there to train children to have the knowledge base they need to get an excellent degree in college to survive independently. I don't care how noble it is that you're an aspiring artist/actress/author. If you're receiving welfare or aid from government programs because you're poor when you knowingly chose to do something you love instead of something you could survive on, fuck you. You should starve.

    What people choose to do with their lives is their business. However, our schools should at least force them to learn skills applicable to building a base for the real world.
    Right.

    Let me see if I understand what you're saying...

    You want to establish an educational system that exclusively teaches some subjects, while neglecting others?

    Content aside (I agree with you that our culture suffers from a depleted outlook towards math and science), you're advocating the same slash-and-burn strategy that reinforces the very ignorance you're working to reduce by your initiative...

    From the sounds of it, your rub really isn't with the arts anyway - you sound more fiscally-minded. You mention welfare and tax policy more than a few times in your response.

    In terms of financial policy, how efficiently do you believe international negotiations would move if we knew less about culture than Americans already do? How familiar are you with the subtleties Chinese nationalism plays on our present trade negotiations with them...? Ever studied the The Hundred Schools of Thought for its relationship to current Chinese fiscal behavior?

    Clearly, there's a lot you have yet to research on the impact of international trade and domestic culture...


    Your concept is highly simplified - both in vision and in prudence. In its present state, your system would handicap American investments/influence abroad, by limiting our basic ability to efficiently communicate with our trade partners...


    You're young. Take it back to the drawing board.

  8. #58
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    History is a massively important subject--but in high school where I went to, our foreign languages were french, spanish, and german.

    I have yet to see Chinese offered anywhere in k-12s.

    What I really have a bone to pick with is all of the artsy and literature courses that DON'T help us abroad or at home.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  9. #59
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    History is a massively important subject--but in high school where I went to, our foreign languages were french, spanish, and german.

    I have yet to see Chinese offered anywhere in k-12s.

    What I really have a bone to pick with is all of the artsy and literature courses that DON'T help us abroad or at home.
    Artsy and literary crap help your critical thinking skills. You have to defend subjective points of view in those kinds of courses. You also become a more well-rounded human being.

    I could go on, but you know, I have to go teach my artsy, literary course.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #60
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    As I've said--nobody's stopping anyone from learning culture. But do it on your own time. Want to learn a foreign language? Library. Or college course. Want to read a good piece of lit? Library or Barnes n Noble. Just not in our elementary schools. I'm not saying to squelch it--I'm just saying to move it to something optional for our children.
    It's nearly impossible to learn a foreign language at the library- interaction is needed to really get a grip on the language.

    Not to mention, you learn a lot out of literature (about other people, about society and so on and so forth) that you can't learn in science class.

    We always made jokes in college about how socially inept the engineering students and science students are (in response to the Lib Arts students are dumb jokes). It wouldn't have been so sad if there really WEREN'T so many people in those departments who had focused entirely on math and science and had no clue how to act around other people. You can't do that to a kid- people need social sciences as well as hard sciences.

    And an interesting fact for you here- almost all of my job offers are related to the fact that puedo hablar en espanol it has nothing to do with my education in statistics.

    I would encourage you to learn more about the education system before trying to ban certain parts of the curriculum- we study things for a reason and I really don't care to live in a culture of a-social nerds who cling to you at a party
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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