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  1. #71
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Benjamin Franklin said, "God helps those who help themselves".

    While Jesus said, "Love your neighbour as yourself".

    This is a good example of cognitive dissonance.
    There is nothing incompatible about those two sentiments.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #72
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There is nothing incompatible about those two sentiments.
    I'm shocked.

    Jesus practised agape.

    While Benjamin practised advantage.

    But far worse, Benjamin set the tone for a whole culture where Benjamin Franklin is a by-word.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I'm shocked.

    Jesus practised agape.

    While Benjamin practised advantage.

    But far worse, Benjamin set the tone for a whole culture where Benjamin Franklin is a by-word.

    Is it not possible to love your fellow man whilst believing that we are all, in the end, responsible for our own actions?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #74
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    If you want to compare with a country where you really have a separation between State and Religion, go to France!

    Wearing a crucifix here is strictly forbidden into public schools, or administrations. A civil servant can't wear any "conspicuous" (=visible or recognizable) religious symbol while he's on duty, or she/he may be fired.

    Two years ago, when one of my student came with a muslim veil, I had the duty to expell her out of the lecture hall (even if I hate that role). Two weeks after this incident, she came back wearing "normal" (= neutral) clothes.

    We have very strict laws about that. Religion has to be strictly confined to the private sphere, it has to remain a private matter at all cost. Mixing religion and politics in France is as shocking as mixing sex and politics in the US. The french opinion can easily forgive an adulterous president (that's fairly common here, anyway ), but will be tremendously shocked if he ever openly confesses his personal views on God.

    ----

    Compared to this situation, the US seems light years away.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #75
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If you want to compare with a country where you really have a separation between State and Religion, go to France!

    Wearing a crucifix here is strictly forbidden into public schools, or administrations. A civil servant can't wear any "conspicuous" (=visible or recognizable) religious symbol while he's on duty, or she/he may be fired.

    Two years ago, when one of my student came with a muslim veil, I had the duty to expell her out of the lecture hall (even if I hate that role). Two weeks after this incident, she came back wearing "normal" (= neutral) clothes.

    We have very strict laws about that. Religion has to be strictly confined to the private sphere, it has to remain a private matter at all cost. Mixing religion and politics in France is as shocking as mixing sex and politics in the US. The french opinion can easily forgive an adulterous president (that's fairly common here, anyway ), but will be tremendously shocked if he ever openly confesses his personal views on God.

    ----

    Compared to this situation, the US seems light years away.

    Light-years away, I am sure, but don't you find that rather overbearing of the French government? I could not IMAGINE sending a child home for wearing a crucifix or a Muslim veil.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #76
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I could not IMAGINE sending a child home for wearing a crucifix or a Muslim veil.
    Well, as many here already pointed, in former catholic european states (like France), the opposition to the Church quickly nurtured a very strong anti-clericalist movement. Thus, the vast majority of the French public opinion openly supports these policies.

    The ban of religious symbols within the public sphere was justified so we could prevent any form of favoritism, nepotism or proselytism. The state has to remain "benevolently neutral", and fair to every citizens.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #77
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    The ban of religious symbols within the public sphere was justified so we could prevent any form of favoritism, nepotism or proselytism. The state has to remain "benevolently neutral", and fair.
    I can certainly agree with the goal, but some of that seems to go quite a bit too far. I can understand blatant, attention-grabbing proselytism being discouraged/banned in the public sphere, but simply wearing a veil or unobtrusive jewelry? Can a Star Wars T-shirt be banned, as some folks proclaim that it might be in support of the "Jedi" religion? Where does it end? Don't get me wrong - I'm a die-hard strict separation of church and state sort of guy, but I wouldn't dream of moving into trying to ban such small tokens of personal expression.

  8. #78
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If you want to compare with a country where you really have a separation between State and Religion, go to France!

    Wearing a crucifix here is strictly forbidden into public schools, or administrations. A civil servant can't wear any "conspicuous" (=visible or recognizable) religious symbol while he's on duty, or she/he may be fired.

    Two years ago, when one of my student came with a muslim veil, I had the duty to expell her out of the lecture hall (even if I hate that role). Two weeks after this incident, she came back wearing "normal" (= neutral) clothes.

    We have very strict laws about that. Religion has to be strictly confined to the private sphere, it has to remain a private matter at all cost. Mixing religion and politics in France is as shocking as mixing sex and politics in the US. The french opinion can easily forgive an adulterous president (that's fairly common here, anyway ), but will be tremendously shocked if he ever openly confesses his personal views on God.

    ----

    Compared to this situation, the US seems light years away.
    Far, far better to be shocked at the violation of the principle of the separation of Church and State, than to be shocked at sexuality.

    The secular state depends on the separation of Church and State. The secular state does not depend on sexuality.

    Only the infantile are shocked at sexuality.

  9. #79
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    *wonders what happens to people with visable tattoos of religious symbols*

    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #80
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *wonders what happens to people with visable tattoos of religious symbols*

    Don't ask that question!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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