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  1. #51
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Those who say "this nation was founded to be Christian" are, indeed, dead wrong. However, it -was- founded with Chritsian values at its core. I mean actual Christian values, now, as in What Jesus Said, not what the various peoples have done with it. This is obvious to anyone who reads both the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution with a clear understanding of Christ's core values.

    We are -not- a Christian State, but the values that inform our laws are very Christian indeed. I, for one, am glad this is so, or else it would be pure capitalistic greed, and I'd predict that we would be in a totalitarian state worse than Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    is this directed at me? Of the famous people I quoted, its fairly obvious that their idea of "God" was not anything close to what Christians have as their idea of God. I am fully aware that their were more than 4 founding fathers, but the ones listed so far are pretty damn prominent.
    Which Christians are you holding up here as the sample of what Christians believe? If you pick Southern Baptists Fundies for all your examples, it's going to be fairly easy to call Christians fanatical nutjobs bent on world domination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    [/B] So now apply that to politics and religion. hopefully we can come to the same conclusion.
    Separation of science and state? Mr. Bush is your man!

    I wish I had time to dive into this one more deeply, but you guys are seriously tearing up the page here...maybe I'll get some free time later for more.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Americans tend not to vote out of "rational self-interest" and that is a good thing.
    Just to be clear: What I meant is voting for what they actually want and need, not for what they are told they want or need or think they want or need.

    So rational self-interest includes saving money to pay for your winter oil -- what you need -- rather than buying that new flatscreen TV with supersound just because you really want it or think you might get more money later....

    Or they'll spend money in other self-indulgent ways or NOT spend money on long-term social goals that would actually benefit them. ("Let's take a tax cut!" rather than "Let's put money into higher education for our kids." This election is hilarious -- we actually have education being treated by one political party as inherently elitist; how wonderful.)

    Personally, I think that's a lousy reality.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Just to be clear: What I meant is voting for what they actually want and need, not for what they are told they want or need or think they want or need.

    So rational self-interest includes saving money to pay for your winter oil -- what you need -- rather than buying that new flatscreen TV with supersound just because you really want it or think you might get more money later....

    Or they'll spend money in other self-indulgent ways or NOT spend money on long-term social goals that would actually benefit them. ("Let's take a tax cut!" rather than "Let's put money into higher education for our kids." This election is hilarious -- we actually have education being treated by one political party as inherently elitist; how wonderful.)

    Personally, I think that's a lousy reality.

    An across-the-board tax cut would benefit everyone in this country. Relying on the government to effect long-term social change almost always hurts everyone in this country. The Republicans are actually far too PRO-education spending at this point. NCLB was a huge, expensive boondoggle. Less than fifteen years ago, the GOP wanted to abolish the Department of Education. I don't see what your point is here at all.

    Furthermore, you are no one to judge how people spend their money. The government has no money of its own; it belongs to the people who make it. Buying a huge TV is way better for the economy and the country as a whole than is 80% of what the government spends its money on.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #54
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    I always thought America was founded on slavery (ie. the total absence of freedom), genocide & exploitation, but that's just me.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    I always thought America was founded on slavery (ie. the total absence of freedom), genocide & exploitation, but that's just me.
    Silly, silly ol' you.

    Worse, it was founded by Puritan idealists - for the best of reasons.

    But what amazes me is how most of you don't realise how Puritan ideals permeate your whole culture.

    You probably don't want to realise how helpless you are in the arms of your Puritan parents.

    And I might say that the best of your fine country comes from the Puritans.

    How sad 'Puritan' has become a funny word.

  6. #56
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Silly, silly ol' you.
    LOL
    I feel like I'm sitting in the first row during a standup comedian.

  7. #57
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    LOL
    I feel like I'm sitting on the first row during a standup comedian.
    I am a standup comedian - and it's wonderful when you laugh out loud.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    I'm glad the OP threw this topic out here. I completely believe in separation of Church and State, and the more I see a politician blessing our nation, calling our 'war on terrorism' a 'task from God' etc, the more I want to just smack them in the head. The very thing our founding fathers wanted to discourage is the very thing that gets modern officials elected into office, and it makes me sick.

    And this coming from someone who was raised a Christian.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  9. #59
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    I always thought America was founded on slavery (ie. the total absence of freedom), genocide & exploitation, but that's just me.
    Yes, that's just you.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #60
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    I'm glad the OP threw this topic out here. I completely believe in separation of Church and State, and the more I see a politician blessing our nation, calling our 'war on terrorism' a 'task from God' etc, the more I want to just smack them in the head. The very thing our founding fathers wanted to discourage is the very thing that gets modern officials elected into office, and it makes me sick.

    And this coming from someone who was raised a Christian.
    Exactly. There's no difference whatsoever with Ayatollahs in Arabian countries, when you have people, who believe in creationism, running for vice president.

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