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  1. #21
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Don't you find that a little contradictory when the U.S. Constitution was ratified then, and that is the supreme law of the land?
    Not really. Anybody with any given interest can try and sell a constitutional hermeneutic that they claim "is what the founding fathers would have thought."

    But that is besides the point. In the case of allowing cases of religious based ideas or institutions to cross over into the affairs of the state, whether the founding fathers intended this to be a distinctly Christian nation or not is irrelevant. Even if they did intend it to be that way, the only pertinent evidence they left was a document that is fairly explicit in its call for the separation of church and state.
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  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Not really. Anybody with any given interest can try and sell a constitutional hermeneutic that they claim "is what the founding fathers would have thought."
    True, and "originalism" can be a dubious philosophy in the wrong hands. Personally, I am more a "textualist."

    But that is besides the point. In the case of allowing cases of religious based ideas or institutions to cross over into the affairs of the state, whether the founding fathers intended this to be a distinctly Christian nation or not is irrelevant. Even if they did intend it to be that way, the only pertinent evidence they left was a document that is fairly explicit in its call for the separation of church and state.
    You're off-base here. There is nothing in the U.S Constitution that "explicitly" calls for an actual separation of Church and State.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . ."

    This is pretty clear: there shall be no official state religion, and the government may not interfere with the rights of individuals in the matters of religion. It says nothing of allowing or disallowing "religious-based ideas or institutions" when it comes to influencing the federal government.
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  3. #23
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    No, but it was founded on the principle that we have rights given by God, and therefore cannot be taken away by any government or ruler.
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  4. #24
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    This is pretty clear: there shall be no official state religion, and the government may not interfere with the rights of individuals in the matters of religion. It says nothing of allowing or disallowing "religious-based ideas or institutions" when it comes to influencing the federal government.
    I agree. In fact "separation between Church and State" is a religious-based idea. Rather I think keeping the two institutions separate allows the possibility of ideas from any religion turning into law. This is a preferable way of doing things, since you allow a lot more ideas to be considered and (hopefully) the superior ones influence future law.

    As an extreme example, the call to abolish slavery originally came from the religious convictions of certain abolitionists. On the other hand the biggest opposition to abolition came from people appealing to religion. People were allowed to consider both viewpoints and eventually the superior idea won (although in a slow and eventually bloody fashion).

    When church and state are united society is not allowed to entertain contradictory viewpoints. There is one official viewpoint that is correct and then the matter is settled. That type of system is inherently stagnant.
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  5. #25
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    No, but it was founded on the principle that we have rights given by God, and therefore cannot be taken away by any government or ruler.
    is this directed at me? Of the famous people I quoted, its fairly obvious that their idea of "God" was not anything close to what Christians have as their idea of God. I am fully aware that their were more than 4 founding fathers, but the ones listed so far are pretty damn prominent.


    If the people today want a theocracy...then fine, if they want it, then so be it (I'd be leaving then...but thats not the point). The only point I'm making is that, the ONLY reason that this country would ever be "a Christian Nation" is if thats what the people want. The idea that its a Christian nation due to the founding fathers, is the only idea I wish to squash.

  6. #26
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    If the people today want a theocracy...
    Virtually all Christian conservatives (in the United States, at least) explicitly do NOT want a theocracy; such a thing would be contrary to both their political AND religious beliefs. Accusations to the contrary are among the most tiresome alarmist nonsense out there.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    To be fair, I have actually heard from some europeans that english Al Jazeera is not nearly as biased as some of our stations can be (Fox news, take your pick on the liberal example)
    I'll discuss this in another thread.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  8. #28
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Virtually all Christian conservatives (in the United States, at least) explicitly do NOT want a theocracy; such a thing would be contrary to both their political AND religious beliefs. Accusations to the contrary are among the most tiresome alarmist nonsense out there.
    Yep, very true.
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  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firelie View Post
    America really scares me.
    Here we find America immensely reassuring.

    Indeed the Mums and Dads of Oz put their pennies and shillings together to subscribe to an immense pillar in our national capital, on which flies the American Eagle, which we call in our familiar fashion, "Bugs Bunny", and the wings do look a bit like the big ears of a wabbit.

    And we are reassured by our three treaties - a Land Treaty, a Military Treaty and an Economic Treaty.

    Our south is secured by the Antarctic Treaty and our north is secured by the base of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and Guam in the Pacific. And our economy is secured by the free trade agreement.

    And on top of that you are cheerful and energetic and speak English. What more could we want?

    We have been allies since 1908 and our greatest worry is that you might take us for granted.

    If you didn't exist, we would have to invent you - thank heavens you invented yourselves first.

  10. #30
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    Default The stupidity of some Americans astounds me beyond belief.

    Reference: the video in this thread.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...an-nation.html

    Honestly, that video makes me glad that the power indeed is NOT vested in the "common people", since, looking at the predominantly red states, it would not be a crazy assumption to believe that the majority of those people are every bit as beyond belief stupid as those in the video.

    It makes me glad that indeed, the "cabal of bankers and Jews" (aka the wealthy elite) has enough power to somewhat mitigate the catastrophic damage caused by such stupidity (which brought us the eight years of possibly the single worst president in all American history).

    Also, what the hell are we allowing foreign news networks to operate within our own borders? Especially those of people that dislike us and fundamentally detest our staunchest ally?

    But moreover, it gives a stark look into why we should vote for Obama--the man of change--because we need some serious CHANGES here within our own borders to make sure this kind of imbecility is exterminated once and for all.

    IMO America's agenda going into the next years should be:

    1) Remove our physical presence from outside our borders, except for bases near our true allies (Israel, Japan, Britain). Then we test our most powerful nuclear weapon to send radiation radars through the roof. Currency not backed by trust in the system is worthless. So too is diplomacy without force. Put the fear of getting a nation detonated in a day into the heart of a dictator, and he'll listen to an eloquent president.

    2) Education. Now. Remove art, music, and poetry from schools. Those can be done on people's own time. Instead, force massive amounts of science, (chemistry, physics, and computer science), math, and history (with special emphasis on wars and financial history). Foreign languages should no longer be mandatory. Replace with more math and science. Remove most literature from the agenda. Instead, teach critical reading skills and grammar only. Shakespeare can be read on people's own time. Replace the new time with more math and science.

    3) In order to make this all work, destroy the teachers' unions and make our k-12 teaching positions as competitive as those found in the financial services industry, and raise compensation to boot. Our colleges are the best in the world because of the competitiveness on both sides of the textbook. Time to do the same with k-12. Our k-12 teachers are the most important people in terms of raising our children. They better be damn good.

    4) Make sure the culture in our k-12 schools gets a complete overhaul. A nerd is not someone with freckles, suspenders, a bad fashion sense, and a weak body such that you can bully him or her into doing your homework. A nerd is someone that is going to be raking in six figure salaries, and if you're not a nerd, you're going to be a nobody. Or so we should have kids believe.

    5) Introductory economics and finance better be taught in the early years of high school, and better be mandatory courses. The amount of people that don't know these two fundamental subjects is staggering.

    6) Random standardized national testing. No set dates for benchmark national standardized exams. Just randomly, over the course of the year, throw one, to make sure that teachers and parents are doing their jobs raising the next generation of thinkers. Standardized exams will include American history, both general and financial, mathematics, chemistry, physics, geometry, algebra, calculus, probability, statistics, computer coding, grammar, critical reading/writing, economics, and finance. How much of each will be dependent upon grade level. By senior year of high school, all of this will be mandatory material.

    7) Final separation of church and state. "One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all." God is an outdated concept, and anyone that chooses to believe in him can do so on their own time. We don't need it indoctrinated into us every time we stand for the pledge to our country.

    8) Expose this belief of diversity/ethnicity difference for what it really is--reverse discrimination. I don't give a damn if you're Indian or Chinese or Japanese or Russian or American or Native American or African American. The color of your skin or the country of your birth shouldn't make a damn difference. Now your accent and command of the English language is a much different story.

    9) Remove the sanctity of religion. It should not be illegal to discriminate upon it, or to ask about it. The religion you believe in and why you believe in it is a conscious choice you make, and is no different than any other value you hold. Anyone should have any right to ask you about it and why you hold the values you do. Just because there's an invisible man or a whole set of them involved makes no difference.

    10) Tax obesity. Use said tax money to subsidize gym memberships. Tax negative externality, subsidize positive.

    11) Tax dirty energy. Tax subsidize clean energy. Lower corporate taxes for firms operating within America. Levy massive taxes on any firms that outsource jobs or import non-citizens. It'll cause some pain in the very short run, and should, if my economics are correct, produce much better results in the longer terms.


    I'll add more as they come to me. In the meantime, feel free to agree or disagree. Just because I respect your right to an opinion doesn't mean I agree with yours, either.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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