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  1. #11
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    If you pick out quotations from some of the other Founding Fathers, it would sound a lot different from that. The United States has an Abrahamic religious heritage, but we also have freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, so we are (supposed to be) able believe and practice as we wish. That is clearly the best system there is.
    When ever people go on about how this country needs to do ________ (insert religiously influenced idea). I retort with "separation of church and state". They however try and reply with, "well yes, but you know the founding fathers were [all] Christian". Its that later statement that needs to be laid out for the lie that it is.

  2. #12
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    When ever people go on about how this country needs to do ________ (insert religiously influenced idea). I retort with "separation of church and state". They however try and reply with, "well yes, but you know the founding fathers were [all] Christian". Its that later statement that needs to be laid out for the lie that it is.
    Personally, I wonder why the hell it matters what the founding fathers thought. They are long dead. It's what people want and need today that matters.

  3. #13
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    My understanding is that the idea of the secular State and the separation of Church of State, arose in Western Europe after the Wars of Religion.
    The United States was the first country to have separation between Church and state. I think Liquid Laser is referring to Roger Williams; Roger Williams (theologian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The religious wars in Europe resulted in the Peace of Westphalia, the origin of the nation-state. The rulers were recognized as sovereign within their borders, and the religion of the rulers was the favored religion of the realm. Its a major reason some of my ancestors emigrated to the American colonies, actually.

    In terms of the "Christian" nature of the United States, Liquid Laser is correct. Militants on either side need to get over themselves.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 10-25-2008 at 07:19 PM. Reason: had more to add

  4. #14
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    My understanding is that the idea of the secular State and the separation of Church of State, arose in Western Europe after the Wars of Religion.
    Well the phrase "separation between Church and State" comes from Roger Williams. He at the very least founded the first colony in the US to intentionally practice a separation between Church and State.

    The situation in Europe was significantly different, because any desire to separate Church from State had to deal with oppostion from the Catholic church.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    We're the country that England dumped all of it's radical Puritans into. Kind of like how Australia got all their prisoners.

    Australia got the better deal, imo.

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Well the phrase "separation between Church and State" comes from Roger Williams. He at the very least founded the first colony in the US to intentionally practice a separation between Church and State.

    The situation in Europe was significantly different, because any desire to separate Church from State had to deal with oppostion from the Catholic church.
    Exactly. Williams and others like him provided a theologically sound reason for (Protestant) Christians to support the separation between religion and state, while the religiously diverse nature of the immigrant population (and their memories of religious persecution) created incentives for people to embrace that interpretation. Political liberals in Catholic countries acted in opposition to the Catholic church, resulting in strong anti-clerical movements. In the United States, political liberalism (in the broadest sense) was supported by both religious and secular elements from the beginning.

  7. #17
    Magical Firelie's Avatar
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    America really scares me.

  8. #18
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Personally, I wonder why the hell it matters what the founding fathers thought. They are long dead. It's what people want and need today that matters.
    That's a strange thing to wonder. You think it's irrelevant to research what the people who founded a country believed and the reasons for their separation from their colonial masters? If one has any interest in history and politics whatsoever, it makes sense. On top of that, we have a formal, written constitution here that delimits what the government may do. It's pretty important to understand how and why that is.
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  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's a strange thing to wonder. You think it's irrelevant to research what the people who founded a country believed and the reasons for their separation from their colonial masters? If one has any interest in history and politics whatsoever, it makes sense. On top of that, we have a formal, written constitution here that delimits what the government may do. It's pretty important to understand how and why that is.
    I don't think he said that it's irrelevant to research or learn about what the founding fathers may have thought. It's just that there's no good reason to use what we think they may have thought as the basis for a political decision today.
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  10. #20
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't think he said that it's irrelevant to research or learn about what the founding fathers may have thought. It's just that there's no good reason to use what we think they may have thought as the basis for a political decision today.
    Don't you find that a little contradictory when the U.S. Constitution was ratified then, and that is the supreme law of the land?
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