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  1. #91
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, I've never said my country was perfect, but don't worry, France is not a violent dictatorship either. Feel free to visit us!
    you mean that you won't all criticize our accents when we try to speak French, make us eat frogs and make fun of us for being unsophisticated?!?



    j/k
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #92
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, I've never said my country was perfect, but don't worry, France is not a violent dictatorship either. Feel free to visit us!
    I've been to France once, ten years ago. I didn't like Paris that much, but I enjoyed the other areas I got to see (Calais, then toward central France, and then on into Switzerland at Lausanne). Ironically, considering your recounting of the militant secularization of the country, a huge percentage of the most beautiful buildings in France were churches. Then again, art and architecture are probably more important to the average Frenchman than is religion, so maybe it isn't so strange.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #93
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We have proportional representation and it works quite well.

    The great advantage of proportional representation is that it is fair.

    And we are the land of the fair go.

    Fair go, mate.
    Proportional representation has extremely negative consequences;

    1.) Multi-member PR districts make it impossible to hold specific representatives accountable to specific voters.

    2.) PR ensures that politicians are subservient and beholden to national party bosses rather than their constituents, creating oligarchic conditions while making true federalism a dead letter.

    3.) PR almost never produces a "minimum winning coalition" without politicking after the vote, resulting in unpredictable ruling coalition (comprised of multiple parties) that the voters cannot control. A first-past the post system, when combined with presidential systems, produces a two-party system in which two (dynamic and fluid) minimum winning coalitions are known to the voters beforehand.

    4.) PR systems make a "separation of powers" system impossible at the executive and legislative levels (after already making separation of powers between national and local governments impossible, see #2); either the two are combined (parliamentary systems) or the legislature is rendered very very weak relative to the Executive (see Latin America).

    This is yet another example of the "American Exceptionalism" I've been harping about recently.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am an agnostic, but I could never live in a country that treated religious belief that way. It boggles my mind.
    Considering how we seem to be following France in every way, socialism included, and France seems to be becoming more like what we WERE, maybe you can just move there in the future :P .

    But seriously, I see no point to antisemitism, it's almost completely hypocritical considering most antisemites are HATEFUL and hate the religions because they are hateful and close minded and have had people to kill others in their name in the past and... do you see where I'm going with this? By that logic the religions have equal right to HATE antisemites because nobody is doing anything but hating each other in the end. Buncha 4 year olds...

    To quote myself -

    "Will mankind commit heinous acts under the name of religion, or will it do so under the name of greed, government, society, culture, or any other number of institution mankind has set up. I don't want to attack you or criticize you, but I think you sort of refuse to account for nature of individual people and their own mentality. People who are likely to murder will do so with whatever excuse life gives them. No institution man has ever created has made man evil, but it is evil men who commit evil acts under the names of the institutions they create.

    Einstein said it perfectly, "Problems cannot be solved with the same level of consciousness that created them." I have said it many times on this forum. Some people get it and some don't. Nothing will ever change unless people are prepared to change in themselves as individuals. There are a great many influences over our behavior and beliefs in this world, but in the end we hold power over our own nature. We must never blame our own creations for our own pitfalls, for if what we create is flawed it is only so because the men who created it were in themselves flawed. This applies to EVERYTHING in the endeavors of humankind.

    People don't like to actually change when it requires them to change themselves. Thus, things remain the same and the people who challenge them to change are chastised. This is human nature, not CHRISTIAN nature. I have to say that everyone who tries to attack Christianity and any other religion that way are in themselves guilty of being inflicted with this disease. Yet they will not realize it because they have the same blinder on if not worse than the people who refuse to change their ways in such religions. "

  5. #95
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I just can't understand a government getting that involved in something that Western tradition dictates is a fundamental freedom. I understand the mentality, but it does not make sense when you consider how much blood has spilled and how many fortunes spent in order for everyone to have freedom of conscience.
    Well, as lowtech redneck pointed out:

    "Exactly. Williams and others like him provided a theologically sound reason for (Protestant) Christians to support the separation between religion and state, while the religiously diverse nature of the immigrant population (and their memories of religious persecution) created incentives for people to embrace that interpretation. Political liberals in Catholic countries acted in opposition to the Catholic church, resulting in strong anti-clerical movements. In the United States, political liberalism (in the broadest sense) was supported by both religious and secular elements from the beginning."

    Different tradition, same goals, I assure you.
    In France, to secure our freedom of thought we had to fight the dogmas of the dominant religion.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #96
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    you mean that you won't all criticize our accents when we try to speak French, make us eat frogs and make fun of us for being unsophisticated?!?



    j/k
    Maybe, maybe...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #97
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    BTW: In France, a lot of what the US considers as "minor" religions are in fact classified as sects, and thus officially banned. Take the scientology, for instance. Scientologist proselytism is considered a crime, according to french laws.
    You have mentioned this (and your support for those policies) before, and I've made my vehement opposition to these and other oppressive policies that violate the rights protected by the First Amendment of the American Constitution very clear in response. Rather than repeat myself, I'll give you a link: infp.globalchatter.com :: View topic - Protests against Scientology

  8. #98
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Maybe, maybe...
    well.... as long as I get to wash it down with some delicious wine I suppose that I could very happily visit your country!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #99
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, as lowtech redneck pointed out:

    "Exactly. Williams and others like him provided a theologically sound reason for (Protestant) Christians to support the separation between religion and state, while the religiously diverse nature of the immigrant population (and their memories of religious persecution) created incentives for people to embrace that interpretation. Political liberals in Catholic countries acted in opposition to the Catholic church, resulting in strong anti-clerical movements. In the United States, political liberalism (in the broadest sense) was supported by both religious and secular elements from the beginning."

    Different tradition, same goals, I assure you.
    In France, to secure our freedom of thought we had to fight the dogmas of the dominant religion.
    But the conditions that (rightly) led to anti-clericalism are no longer present. Catholicism is no longer in opposition to liberal democracy. Orthodox Islam IS in opposition, but do not constitute a sufficient threat (in France) to warrant such draconian policies in the modern era. France is no longer Turkey.

  10. #100
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    But the conditions that (rightly) led to anti-clericalism are no longer present. Catholicism is no longer in opposition to liberal democracy. Orthodox Islam IS in opposition, but do not constitute a sufficient threat (in France) to warrant such draconian policies in the modern era. France is no longer Turkey.
    Well, you know Jefferson's quote:

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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