Loving God?

[SolitaryWalker]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

I think Christianity has already provided basic answers to the objections raised here. Basically, God wanted it to be good, but people screwed it up; and if God did not give people the opportunity to screw it up, then no one would exist as a "self" with volition. That's the standard position you'd hear, in a nutshell. So perhaps that is what would have to be confronted/addressed in a conversation such as this one for the exploration to deepen..

People screwed up. Silly isnt it? Free will? Why didnt God made the universe where there only good A and good B?

Maybe evil is necessary in order to have some good? As without suffering, we would not be able to experience the gretest kind of pleasure.

Perhaps, but this is because God made the universe in a way where suffering is a prerequisite for pleasure. If he was truly ALL good, he would not have made the universe where suffering is a component at all.

Originally Posted by Jennifer

The "in" thing nowadays is actually to let yourself rant at God when you're pissed, especially if you have doubts about his character, because he should be big enough to handle it. (This is a welcome change from mid-20th-century western Christianity.).

Could there possibly be a person about whose character we would not be justified in ranting? I think Christianity truly has stabbed itself in the foot by proclaiming God as a person. What is a good person? Essentially one who has no ill motives, no negative energy. Yet in order to have no negative energy we must be at peace with all things in the world. We can only be at peace with the things we are comfortable with. Much like if you're a dominant Intuitor, it will be difficult for you to be at peace with Sensation oriented things.

You could try and become balanced and comfortable with just about everything to an extent. But in order to be wholly comfortable with anything, you have to be flawless when dealing with such a thing. Can you imagine any person being wholly flawless with any activity 100% of the time? This is what he needs in order to be perfect in one single respect, as otherwise the upsets will cause him to incur negative energy.

I don't even think we can be perfect in one walk of life, the one that comes to us most naturally and easily. Even less so in all walks of life.

[heart]

Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn

Why?

I know the Christian faith says that we should not only accept Jesus/god as a savior but that we should love him. Why do humans feel compelled to worship and show admiration towards god? The same god that's ready to share heaven with us is the same one that will damn you in a heart beat? Doesn't the "game" of faith seem a bit much for us humans, as feeble as we are? I call it a game, in that we must process within our heads whether we can come to have a faith in god, then, depending on our decision to accept or deny, that dictates the eternal resting place of our souls. Does it not seem like a game of chess or something where we're merely dispensable pawns? Why would an all loving god wish for my brain to be plagued with this shit that I don't feel I have the ability and mental capacity to sort out?

I was not raised in traditional Christianity but in a loose form of Pantheistic beliefs taught to me by my own father. I have a hard time understanding the a or b terms that so many paint the idea of god into.

Since I am trapped by human perception, I cannot really feel that I know what true love from a god would be like. Maybe things that seem painful and unnecessary to me in my current state of existience are not meant to be punishment but for growth or some other reason I cannot even imagine. I can only see and understand what I am capable of in my current form. I cannot even know if this the only possible or current form of myself in the all that is because I do not know all that is because of my limits.

Since I cannot harmonize with idea of chaos, I assume for my own comfort that the limits I have been placed in this world into have some sort of purpose but I cannot figure it out because of those very limits. I also admit that I have a need to believe in purpose, this is the way my mind works and that this is but yet another example of my limits in this world and round and round it goes.

Now we see through a glass darkly, but someday perhaps face to face (that's a metaphor!), to be seen and know and to see and know all that there is? That's the secret hope of my heart.

[wedekit]

Not many before us question God's character and intentions. For some odd reason, there is this belief that if you don't believe in God you believe in science. Why is it either/or? Seems like to me that people require a sense of security; they either go old fashioned and pick God so they can dismiss science, or they embrace science so they can dismiss God. A few people embrace both, but that's a different story.

Honestly, God doesn't "let" things happen. Anything that happens in my life, good or bad, I don't thank God for. I thank God for letting me have the opportunity to experience them. Bad stuff doesn't happen to me because God makes it happen, it's because of the choices other people make. Every choice has a consequence. If he did stop people from doing bad we wouldn't have free will. You have to take the Old Testament into context. The authors integrated "archetypes" from a lot of other religious systems to describe their own, probably explaining the more ruthless image of God in the OT. I can't think of a religious system from back then that didn't have an abundance of violence.

Most people feel more at ease blaming God than they do blaming themselves for any unhappiness in their life. I've been there before.

If you are interested, I suggest you do what I did. I threw away anything about God that I learned from others (including Catholic perspectives and beliefs) and I started from scratch. I studied and searched and was able to form my own beliefs on the matter. What I came to find is that people's ideas of who and what God is are strange. They read the Bible like it is an autobiography of God, forgetting the biased views of the Jews when they wrote the Old Testament. Of COURSE the Jews are going to say that every good thing that happened to them was because of God. Of COURSE they are going to think that any good leader they had was sent to them by God. Of COURSE when anything bad happens to them they will think they are being punished by God. That's what happens when you are described as the "chosen people". You think that you are under 24/7 watch. The pursuit of science has cleared up a lot of those kinds of superstitions, and we have to be thankful for that.

I'm only saying all of this because it is in the religious section. I'm not trying to convert you or anything, just trying to help you put the idea of God into perspective. Either way it still requires faith, but for me it was not that easy. I needed solid reasoning behind God's existence. I'm not one of those people who can say that God exists without a doubt. However, I wish to believe and so I am searching for that one piece of evidence that I need.

[sassafrassquatch]

Originally Posted by wedekit

If you are interested, I suggest you do what I did. I threw away anything about God that I learned from others (including Catholic perspectives and beliefs) and I started from scratch. I studied and searched and was able to form my own beliefs on the matter. What I came to find is that people's ideas of who and what God is are strange. They read the Bible like it is an autobiography of God, forgetting the biased views of the Jews when they wrote the Old Testament. Of COURSE the Jews are going to say that every good thing that happened to them was because of God. Of COURSE they are going to think that any good leader they had was sent to them by God. Of COURSE when anything bad happens to them they will think they are being punished by God. That's what happens when you are described as the "chosen people". You think that you are under 24/7 watch. The pursuit of science has cleared up a lot of those kinds of superstitions, and we have to be thankful for that.

I'm only saying all of this because it is in the religious section. I'm not trying to convert you or anything, just trying to help you put the idea of God into perspective. Either way it still requires faith, but for me it was not that easy. I needed solid reasoning behind God's existence. I'm not one of those people who can say that God exists without a doubt. However, I wish to believe and so I am searching for that one piece of evidence that I need.

*notgoingtoarguenotgoingtoarguenotgoingtoargue*

Purely out of curiosity.

Why do you want/need to believe in a God? What do you get out of it? It just seems like an unnecessary thing to me. "Tits on a bull" if you will.

Not arguing. Just curious.

[whatever]

I'm not so sure about this whole loving God thing- I think that God is fairly wicked and just enjoys toying with us I'm with most of the world's ancient cultures here- God is mean and s/he doesn't like us- we must do what we can in order to stave him/her off as long as possible!

Our love and such towards God is merely us trying to prevent ourselves from bad luck even sooner!

[hungrypossum]

You can refer to my post on "Slain in the spirit" further down somewhere on this section of the forum..

I've heard this so many times! That God is some mean-ass!

Actually. Consider this. The bible says God is love right? Now God is love, and he's the Giving force.That is his nature. Anything against his nature is SIN. He is holy and cannot take sin. Now think about it. Can hate CREATE anything other than destruction? Only love really builds and creates. For e.g, if we really didn't want to cook dinner, we would probably do a bad job of it right? But If we LOVED to cook dinner, wouldn't we make an awesome 5 star meal? The bible says God made humans "in his likeness", and we are "beautifully and wonderfully made".

The reason God made us is so he can love us and we can love him back. The bible describes the Garden of Eden as a Kickass place. Adam and Eve were the prince and princess of earth, all they did was laze about, explore the world and have sex all day. (I kid you not, God made all that for us to enjoy!)
You know guys, since I know how the presence of God feels like... I can tell you one thing CLOSE (but still far off) to it is being out in nature. Why? Cause you can see the works of his hand. You can look at the mountains and marvel at it. You can look at your pet dog and marvel at it, for it was made to be a companion. Or a horse, which was made just to ride on Stuff like that.

Unfortunately, from the first time humans disobeyed God (Adam was given the choice of eating the fruit or not) we were separated from his glory. It means, we can't hear him no more, not the same way birds and other animals can hear his command. (Scientists say it is "instinct" that makes birds fly and animals move the way they do.)

Now, I'm a medical student right... and...(MEDICAL ESTP STUDENT WHOO!) I have never failed to look in awe at my anatomy and physiology textbook of 1300 pages, and marvel at stuff like "scientists are still researching the purpose of the ganglion", "scientists have erred and discovered calcitonin is also produced in the thymus".... Science in fact, is just a study of how things in the world are. They have tried to figure out what light is and changed their classification of it over 13 times! But they still have no idea what it is that makes our body move. Could it be... a soul? What keeps the soul alive? What are emotions? Are they are response to something? What is the feeling... of guilt? Joy?

You know, we have 100 billion neurons in our head!! Indeed we are wonderfully and beautifully made. HOW DARE SOCIETY tell us we are nothing more than monkeys, and then blame men for the destruction we have caused for not acting as "men"!! That is why, many people, including children, wake up feeling "empty". God takes your soul to be more important than your physical body. Your soul has a HP bar, and life beats you up all the time! That is why you have to go back to your manufacturer for a fix. That is why, we crazy people praise God when things are going badly. Cos he's gonna pull us outta trouble and we KNOW it! (He always pretends he's not there!!) I yell at God all the time and say: I KNOW YOU THERE! I pull out my guitar and sing God love songs He has NEVER failed me!

I'll tell you abit about my family. I have a half sister 1o years older, and she lived with us in my father's house most of her life, rather uncomfortably, till she got married. My father and I hardly talked to each other for 10 years. I went back to Singapore last year and told my Dad, who I hadn't seen in a long while I'd become a Christian. He isn't, so he asked me alot of questions, and then finally he said "Don't get too involved in religion" So I said "No Dad, it's not that. I tell you its true I love God. Do you think it's possible to love 'air'" And he was so funny, he was like "Yea! I say its possible to love air." Then I said "But it's hard enough to love a human. So how do you love air".
And Mum told me Dad said on his armchair for a really long time thinking about it. Cos indeed, I can't say that he can love my half sister till today.

The other popular question is "But God made HELL! he wants to stuff us in a curry pot!" Hell is described as a place for those who cannot come near God anymore! It was first formed for the devil, who was an angel who wanted to overthrow God. You see, anyone who wants power for his own cannot possibly be the ruler of this world (very scary thought). God is a giving force, the devil cannot give. So its, to hell with the devil. But why do humans go to hell too? Cos you had free will and you were the one who said you didn't wanna follow God! You can tell whose your master, God or the devil and you yourself will know... ( Ok maybe I will start another thread on this it is very hard to explain something of such Eternal consequences within a paragraph)

My university, the University of Melbourne, has started an interesting study called "Christian Spiritual experiences". So far, they have discovered that some Christians have never touched God either but believe in "faith".

Actually, it depends you know. I have had a non Christian friend who told me she has felt that "great love and peace settle on her" once. She said she cried. So she knows theres a God she says she hadn't sought out which one.
You know, I went to one for 1/2 a year since I decided Christ must be real last year and all the speaker did was put me to sleep. (But many I have a short attention span) So I went to Planetshakers and...

@_@ Whoa. You can feel him everytime in a crowd of people who love him! Best, you can hear him too!

The bible says: "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you". I like being near him Very, very much so. To the Christians reading this: If you think you don't hear God, but you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you do hear him alright. Keep it up, praying in tongues etc, and you will come to recognize his voice more and more! You will, oh you so will. And when you know him well enough, God speaks to you very casually too! One time I was just playing Frozen Throne when I should have been studying, and he was like "GET ON WITH YOUR WORK". I was like O.O And how many of us know our God is a funny guy! CHEERS! AMEN.

[sassafrassquatch]

Originally Posted by hungrypossum

...

[Beat]

Originally Posted by hungrypossum

You can refer to my post on "Slain in the spirit" further down somewhere on this section of the forum..

I've heard this so many times! That God is some mean-ass!

Actually. Consider this. The bible says God is love right? Now God is love, and he's the Giving force.That is his nature. Anything against his nature is SIN. He is holy and cannot take sin. Now think about it. Can hate CREATE anything other than destruction? Only love really builds and creates. For e.g, if we really didn't want to cook dinner, we would probably do a bad job of it right? But If we LOVED to cook dinner, wouldn't we make an awesome 5 star meal? The bible says God made humans "in his likeness", and we are "beautifully and wonderfully made".

The reason God made us is so he can love us and we can love him back. The bible describes the Garden of Eden as a Kickass place. Adam and Eve were the prince and princess of earth, all they did was laze about, explore the world and have sex all day. (I kid you not, God made all that for us to enjoy!)
You know guys, since I know how the presence of God feels like... I can tell you one thing CLOSE (but still far off) to it is being out in nature. Why? Cause you can see the works of his hand. You can look at the mountains and marvel at it. You can look at your pet dog and marvel at it, for it was made to be a companion. Or a horse, which was made just to ride on Stuff like that.

Unfortunately, from the first time humans disobeyed God (Adam was given the choice of eating the fruit or not) we were separated from his glory. It means, we can't hear him no more, not the same way birds and other animals can hear his command. (Scientists say it is "instinct" that makes birds fly and animals move the way they do.)

Now, I'm a medical student right... and...(MEDICAL ESTP STUDENT WHOO!) I have never failed to look in awe at my anatomy and physiology textbook of 1300 pages, and marvel at stuff like "scientists are still researching the purpose of the ganglion", "scientists have erred and discovered calcitonin is also produced in the thymus".... Science in fact, is just a study of how things in the world are. They have tried to figure out what light is and changed their classification of it over 13 times! But they still have no idea what it is that makes our body move. Could it be... a soul? What keeps the soul alive? What are emotions? Are they are response to something? What is the feeling... of guilt? Joy?

You know, we have 100 billion neurons in our head!! Indeed we are wonderfully and beautifully made. HOW DARE SOCIETY tell us we are nothing more than monkeys, and then blame men for the destruction we have caused for not acting as "men"!! That is why, many people, including children, wake up feeling "empty". God takes your soul to be more important than your physical body. Your soul has a HP bar, and life beats you up all the time! That is why you have to go back to your manufacturer for a fix. That is why, we crazy people praise God when things are going badly. Cos he's gonna pull us outta trouble and we KNOW it! (He always pretends he's not there!!) I yell at God all the time and say: I KNOW YOU THERE! I pull out my guitar and sing God love songs He has NEVER failed me!

I'll tell you abit about my family. I have a half sister 1o years older, and she lived with us in my father's house most of her life, rather uncomfortably, till she got married. My father and I hardly talked to each other for 10 years. I went back to Singapore last year and told my Dad, who I hadn't seen in a long while I'd become a Christian. He isn't, so he asked me alot of questions, and then finally he said "Don't get too involved in religion" So I said "No Dad, it's not that. I tell you its true I love God. Do you think it's possible to love 'air'" And he was so funny, he was like "Yea! I say its possible to love air." Then I said "But it's hard enough to love a human. So how do you love air".
And Mum told me Dad said on his armchair for a really long time thinking about it. Cos indeed, I can't say that he can love my half sister till today.

The other popular question is "But God made HELL! he wants to stuff us in a curry pot!" Hell is described as a place for those who cannot come near God anymore! It was first formed for the devil, who was an angel who wanted to overthrow God. You see, anyone who wants power for his own cannot possibly be the ruler of this world (very scary thought). God is a giving force, the devil cannot give. So its, to hell with the devil. But why do humans go to hell too? Cos you had free will and you were the one who said you didn't wanna follow God! You can tell whose your master, God or the devil and you yourself will know... ( Ok maybe I will start another thread on this it is very hard to explain something of such Eternal consequences within a paragraph)

My university, the University of Melbourne, has started an interesting study called "Christian Spiritual experiences". So far, they have discovered that some Christians have never touched God either but believe in "faith".

Actually, it depends you know. I have had a non Christian friend who told me she has felt that "great love and peace settle on her" once. She said she cried. So she knows theres a God she says she hadn't sought out which one.
You know, I went to one for 1/2 a year since I decided Christ must be real last year and all the speaker did was put me to sleep. (But many I have a short attention span) So I went to Planetshakers and...

@_@ Whoa. You can feel him everytime in a crowd of people who love him! Best, you can hear him too!

The bible says: "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you". I like being near him Very, very much so. To the Christians reading this: If you think you don't hear God, but you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you do hear him alright. Keep it up, praying in tongues etc, and you will come to recognize his voice more and more! You will, oh you so will. And when you know him well enough, God speaks to you very casually too! One time I was just playing Frozen Throne when I should have been studying, and he was like "GET ON WITH YOUR WORK". I was like O.O And how many of us know our God is a funny guy! CHEERS! AMEN.

I appreciate your charismatic post but my head is spinning I think.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by heart

Now we see through a glass darkly, but someday perhaps face to face (that's a metaphor!), to be seen and know and to see and know all that there is? That's the secret hope of my heart.

Ha, regardless of what exactly I believe, that's still one of my favorite verses.

Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn

I appreciate your charismatic post but my head is spinning I think.

I can admire it from afar, due to its passion... but I'm afraid I think things are far less certain than what is espoused there.

Originally Posted by BlueWing

...Perhaps, but this is because God made the universe in a way where suffering is a prerequisite for pleasure. If he was truly ALL good, he would not have made the universe where suffering is a component at all.

Yes, that should have been possible. We buy into the Suffering motif because it's all we know, living inside this particular world. Just because it wasn't done that way, however, says nothing. You might as well criticize an artist for not painting a picture the way you'd like, without talking to the artist and finding out their reasons.

Originally Posted by BlueWing

Could there possibly be a person about whose character we would not be justified in ranting? I think Christianity truly has stabbed itself in the foot by proclaiming God as a person.

Possibly, for many reasons.

Obviously if one equates Jesus = God/Trinity, then there definitely seems to be a person there... but Jesus definitely was not flat/peace/comfort. He agonized, he stirred up passions and anger, sometimes he ranted himself.

Today, still, the "Buddy Jesus" got too popular. (George Carlin I think brought it up in "Dogma.") People talk so much about these "personal relationships" with God and entirely humanize him... If God isn't like a human, how would we connect with him intimately? But he is like a human, then he's not really God.

Originally Posted by wedekit

...What I came to find is that people's ideas of who and what God is are strange. They read the Bible like it is an autobiography of God, forgetting the biased views of the Jews when they wrote the Old Testament. Of COURSE the Jews are going to say that every good thing that happened to them was because of God. Of COURSE they are going to think that any good leader they had was sent to them by God. Of COURSE when anything bad happens to them they will think they are being punished by God. That's what happens when you are described as the "chosen people". You think that you are under 24/7 watch. The pursuit of science has cleared up a lot of those kinds of superstitions, and we have to be thankful for that.

Very nice assessment.

[SolitaryWalker]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Yes, that should have been possible. We buy into the Suffering motif because it's all we know, living inside this particular world. Just because it wasn't done that way, however, says nothing. You might as well criticize an artist for not painting a picture the way you'd like, without talking to the artist and finding out their reasons.

Yes, I am sorry, I should have remembered. All that we know is pain is bad, pleasure is good. We have to rewire our nature to like pain.

We certainly dont understand how rape, plunder, floods are a good thing, but we just have to believe they are. They show us white, and we have to scream 'its BLACK!'.

No doubt this is all that we know, but somehow we have to know of a way to like pain.

Essentially, morality is to be assessed only through the scope of human nature. The term good, in a non-human perspective is useless because we have no way of assessing such a thing.