I feel uncomfortable praying in front of people.

[Valiant]

Being christian is (viewed as) almost as bad as being illiterate, the world sees it as it's call to educate such individuals. I mean, since there is proof that the creation is a load of horse-shit, it shouldn't be so hard to accept that the bible is pure fiction mixed with wonder stories about an actual man who lived about two thousand years ago.
Sorry, just felt I had to give a reason to why it is less and less acceptable to be christian nowadays.

 

[kyuuei]

Being christian is (viewed as) almost as bad as being illiterate, the world sees it as it's call to educate such individuals. I mean, since there is proof that the creation is a load of horse-shit, it shouldn't be so hard to accept that the bible is pure fiction mixed with wonder stories about an actual man who lived about two thousand years ago.
Sorry, just felt I had to give a reason to why it is less and less acceptable to be christian nowadays.

.. I dunno. I can't seem to validate the bigotry towards Christianity itself though. I see what you're saying, it makes perfect sense. But at the same time.. People were mad back in time because they could not practice whatever they wanted in public because of Christianity. It seems like the tables are turned a bit, but instead of just Christians feeling awkward, EVERYONE does now. I'm not Christian, and I still feel just as awkward to put myself in public when speaking of religion for fear of offending someone, or even worse, for someone shoving their self-righteous views upon me when I never asked for them.

 

[EJCC]

Whenever I try to pray for anything, I think "People are starving out in the world. People are diseased, orphaned, homeless... I'm living in a comfortable situation, with a roof over my head." So, instead, I either thank God for the blessings I've been given, or I tell God "Don't think about me - help out the people who actually need it. Leave me be. I'm fine."

Anyways, I agree with Jeffster and Whatever. Prayers are private - therefore, I never pray out loud.

And by the way - I'm kind of offended by the whole Christian-Nazi comparison stuff that's just been said (and the "pure fiction mixed with wonder stories" comment... although I also don't believe in taking the Bible literally, or in the Creation). By making those sorts of accusations, people become just as bigoted as the religion they're fighting against.

I agree with Kyuuei. People do stupid, horrible things, both secular and non. No religion (or lack thereof) is exempt.

 

[Mole]

.. I dunno. I can't seem to validate the bigotry towards Christianity itself though. I see what you're saying, it makes perfect sense. But at the same time.. People were mad back in time because they could not practice whatever they wanted in public because of Christianity. It seems like the tables are turned a bit, but instead of just Christians feeling awkward, EVERYONE does now. I'm not Christian, and I still feel just as awkward to put myself in public when speaking of religion for fear of offending someone, or even worse, for someone shoving their self-righteous views upon me when I never asked for them.

This is sectarian and parochial.

The fact is that there has never been a civilization not based on a religion. And ours is based on Judeo-Greek-Christianity.

I think, quite unconsciously, you are talking about a particular sect of Christianity as though it were the whole of Judeo-Greek-Christianity.

I am amazed you look around you and only see what is around you.

And yet here you are, in the Noosphere, in the global village, talking to people from different cultures from all over the world. But all you can see is your own parish.

 

[kyuuei]

This is sectarian and parochial.

The fact is that there has never been a civilization not based on a religion. And ours is based on Judeo-Greek-Christianity.

I think, quite unconsciously, you are talking about a particular sect of Christianity as though it were the whole of Judeo-Greek-Christianity.

I am amazed you look around you and only see what is around you.

And yet here you are, in the Noosphere, in the global village, talking to people from different cultures from all over the world. But all you can see is your own parish.

Hmm.. This sounds suspiciously like you are accusing me of only knowing things from my personal experiences. In which case, you're absolutely correct. I'm incapable of experiencing little else than what I have within my own life.

I'm not talking FOR the entire world because I cannot. The point was made in the OP that there's an embarrassment and almost resentment for publicly exposing religion. I put my views based on my experiences, for better or worse for the creator of the thread to use the information how they choose.

I really can't understand the point you were trying to make with this statement above.

 

[Mole]

Hmm.. This sounds suspiciously like you are accusing me of only knowing things from my personal experiences. In which case, you're absolutely correct. I'm incapable of experiencing little else than what I have within my own life.

Let me confirm your suspicions.

The whole purpose of literacy, and indeed numeracy, is to learn things that you could not possibly learn from your personal experience.

It is only the illiterate and innumerate that are limited to their own parish.

And yet here you are, out in world, telling us 'you are incapable of experiencing little else than what you have within your own life'.

Am I to believe you?

Or am I to think you are only mouthing the conventional wisdom?

 

[EJCC]

The fact is that there has never been a civilization not based on a religion.

1. One could argue that the five Communist countries are exceptions... but it depends on who you talk to. (e.g. party officials would say yes, that they are exceptions, but most others would disagree.)

2. This is reminding me of Joseph Campbell His writings are very interesting, and related to your comment.

 

[kyuuei]

Let me confirm your suspicions.

The whole purpose of literacy, and indeed numeracy, is to learn things that you could not possibly learn from your personal experience.

It is only the illiterate and innumerate that are limited to their own parish.

And yet here you are, out in world, telling us 'you are incapable of experiencing little else than what you have within your own life'.

Am I to believe you?

Or am I to think you are only mouthing the conventional wisdom?

Okay. Because experience can't come from the internet? Wtf are you even saying right now?!

If I read something that someone else has experienced, and I say "Hey, that's a good idea they came up with to cope like that." Then I, in turn, use it in my life.. I have gained experience.

I wasn't here to experience anything, but to lend my knowledge and situations to the person trying to gain experience. If I had desired advise on religion or public praying, I'd have made a thread myself. "Life", as I put it, has many ways of experiencing things. Thus far, in this instance, I can only write what I have currently experienced. I can't talk out of my ass.

I think if you're going to pick on me, you'd better do it another time.

 

[EJCC]

Let me confirm your suspicions.

The whole purpose of literacy, and indeed numeracy, is to learn things that you could not possibly learn from your personal experience.

It is only the illiterate and innumerate that are limited to their own parish.

And yet here you are, out in world, telling us 'you are incapable of experiencing little else than what you have within your own life'.

Am I to believe you?

Or am I to think you are only mouthing the conventional wisdom?

Um... I don't think Kyuuei was including vicarious experiences.

And speaking of "illiterate and innumerate", did it cross your mind that it's impossible for people NOT to experience things vicariously?

And also, what's the point of this argument? Are the viewers of this thread gaining ANYTHING from it? If you agree, guys, save it for private messaging.

 

[Mole]

1. One could argue that the five Communist countries are exceptions... but it depends on who you talk to. (e.g. party officials would say yes, that they are exceptions, but most others would disagree.)

2. This is reminding me of Joseph Campbell His writings are very interesting, and related to your comment.

I would never say the five Communist countries comprised a civilization.

To be clear, I would say there are only three civilizations in the world today - the Chinese civilization - the Indian civilization - and the Western civilization.

And of course, there have been other civilizations in the past.

And yes, I was delighted to discover Joseph Campbell - his enormous breadth was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Mole]

I think if you're going to pick on me, you'd better do it another time.

I am sorry you feel I am picking on you. Next time I will try to enhance your self esteem.

 

[Virtual ghost]

To be clear, I would say there are only three civilizations in the world today - the Chinese civilization - the Indian civilization - and the Western civilization.

In general that is true.

But I think that there are four of them.

You forgot Islam.

 

[Valiant]

Maybe it was deliberate, antisocial.

 

[Jeffster]

Being christian is (viewed as) almost as bad as being illiterate, the world sees it as it's call to educate such individuals. I mean, since there is proof that the creation is a load of horse-shit, it shouldn't be so hard to accept that the bible is pure fiction mixed with wonder stories about an actual man who lived about two thousand years ago.
Sorry, just felt I had to give a reason to why it is less and less acceptable to be christian nowadays.

I don't have anybody on my ignore list. Don't be the first.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Maybe it was deliberate, antisocial.

Probably it was. (I read his post)

It is just that I want to see his opinion.

 

[Valiant]

Probably it was. (I read his post)

It is just that I want to see his opinion.

 

[Nocapszy]

I feel uncomfortable praying.
I don't like lying to myself.

 

[Valiant]

I feel uncomfortable praying.
I don't like lying to myself.

I started to wonder why I am a member of your fan club, now I know

 

[Mole]

In general that is true.

But I think that there are four of them.

You forgot Islam.

Of course Islam is commonly referred to as a civilization. But I don't include it as a civilization because it lacks breadth.

For instance, Spain translates more books into Spanish in one year, than Islamic countries have translated into Arabic in the last five hundred years.

Islamic culture did have a brief flowering near the beginning but over the last one thousand years, Islam has contributed not one significant idea to human culture.

So I think it is special pleading to call Islam a civilization. Rather I see Islam as an aggressive political religion whose holy book teaches Jihad and martyrdom.

So I don't think there is a clash of civilizations - rather there is a clash of civilization and barbarity.

 

[Heart&Brain]

Yeah, I also feel embarrassed when I see people praying in public...

If they look weak or undereducated I'll pretend not to notice. A bit like ignoring it when someone's farting in the elevator in order to spare them further humiliation.
But if they are in a position of authority, I will debate them as I will any other accountable person promoting unethical ideologies.

Before you ask what the unethical part is, a perfect illustration runs through this thread: confronted with explicitly religious motivated crimes, some believers still choose to blame the mysterious immorality of single persons in order to protect the powerful moralist doctrine itself from criticism.

But thing is, every set of ideas is invented, carried and promoted by persons. And just as persons can't be reduced to an idea, ideas cannot be reduced to persons. Using people as default scapegoats to divert criticism of a corrupt doctrine simply will not do. People cannot be used as a lazy free-pass, pretending that bad ideas have nothing to do with the actions of their followers. Ideas do influence collective perceptions and actions. Human intelligence will be wise to make them the object of critique.

The ethical standpoint being of course that it's people who should be protected (religious people included), not their ideas. Ideas must be challenged and scrutinized, never made sacred.

Oh, and defending religion by accusing secular humanism and critical reasoning for bigotry seems... cynical. Could be funny I guess, if superstitious belief weren't still wrecking havock around the world.
But, hell, we can take it. (Laurie Anderson: ...and if we can't, we can fake it... )