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Thread: Size

  1. #21
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    'scuse, Victor.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For 200,000 years our horizon was limited by our size.

    But over the last 100 years or so our horizon has extended to include the unimaginably small and the unimaginably large.

    Our horizon has extended from the heart of the atom to the shape of the universe.

    And we found the atom is not what we thought it was, and nor is the universe.

    In fact the atom and the universe are quite counter-intuitive.

    While the things we can relate to our physical size remain intuitive.

    And so we now have a bifurcation in human culture - those who are intuitive and those who are counter-intuitive.

    And those who are counter-intuitive are invariably literate and numerate.

    And it is only the literate and numerate that can understand the modern world of science, economics and politics.

    And it is the intuitive that are left in the world of astrology, religion, the New Age, pseudo-science and tribalism.

    C.P. Snow spoke of these two cultures in, "The Two Cultures", in 1959.

    And I hardly need to point out that the illiterate, innumerate, tribal world of Islam is at war with the literate, numerate, democratic West.

    And the war is about size.

    The intuitive only have to look about them to see they are right. While the counter-intuitive only have to look through a microscope or a telescope to see they are right.

    Unfortunately for the intuitive, the cat is out of the bag.

    In fact two cats - one very small and one very large.

    And the counter-intuitive cats are among the intuitive pigeons.
    Perhaps you should read my signature Victor:

    "We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount...The world has achieved brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
    --General Omar Bradley

    Nietzsche made a similar remark about that while our "descriptions" of the world have become more elaborated, our actual explainations have not progressed one iota since the days of Plato.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You might say the war for illiteracy and innumeracy is led by Jean-Jacques Rousseau from the Eighteen Century.
    Rousseau was not against literacy, even with his "Noble Savage" concept. He noted that literacy was a major element to good citizenship, and noted the importance of certain books in his book on education Emile.

    And it still prevents us from applying the only known antidote to tribalism.
    That's assuming "tribalism" is bad, and Rousseau makes an interesting argument in favor of it in Discourse on the Political Economy:
    "It appears that the feeling of humanity evaporates and grows feeble in embracing all mankind, and that we cannot be affected by the calamities of Tartary or Japan, in the same manner as we are by those of European nations. It is necessary in some degree to confine and limit our interest and compassion in order to make it active. Now, as this sentiment can be useful only to those with whom we have to live, it is proper that our humanity should confine itself to our fellow-citizens, and should receive a new force because we are in the habit of seeing them, and by reason of the common interest which unites them. It is certain that the greatest miracles of virtue have been produced by patriotism: this fine and lively feeling, which gives to the force of self-love all the beauty of virtue, lends it an energy which, without disfiguring it, makes it the most heroic of all passions."
    Rousseau also made the point that a cosmopolitan will declare his love for humanity because he can't stand the people immediately around him.

    This basic argument was also given by Edmund Burke, a man who had no real sympathy towards Rousseau's philopsophy.

    Love for humanity begins with those closest to you, not those farthest away.

    And the antidote to tribalism is literacy and numeracy.
    Then explain the emergence of nationalism during the age of universal education.

  4. #24
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    As I read the OP I thought about the "original," nature -oriented state of man and also that in many ways science has alienated us from that.
    Alienation isn't always incorrect.

    I don't recall a time in my life when my spirituality wasn't connected to the world about me and the vaster Universe which I conceptualize. Also the microcosms.
    How wonderful. What's stuff is the spirit made of?

    But I don't think that science and nature have to be opposing inclinations.
    Listen cat, science is the study of nature. There are bad scientists.
    And any scientist who tells you that nature and science stand in opposition or rivalry is a bad scientist. Mock them on behalf of me please.

    Good science attempts to explain confusing phenomena. Phenomena that was previously thought to be impossible. Every single time so far, logic has pulled it together.
    If, in nature, you see a frog what kills an elephant, you'll soon find that scientists will try to find out just how it happened. It seemed impossible. It seemed mysterious. But it wasn't really. We were just blind to what we have no experience with. A bad scientist will tell you that nature made a mistake. It didn't happen because it couldn't happen.

    A good scientist will take samples and do an autopsy of the elephant.

    That kind of black and white thinking IS alienating, from my perspective.
    Alienation isn't always incorrect. Additionally, correctitude knows no perspective. Yours, mine, President Bush's Victors? Reality doesn't care. What we think. He'll just keep doing his job. Even after we stop trying to psychoanalyze him.
    It seems to me that everything "fits" together in mysterious ways.
    As long as you submit to the notion that everything fits together, you'll do fine.
    And to a good scientist, deciphering the mystery is better than any video game.



    I've frequently read that as scientists get closer to understanding the mechanics of the Universe many of them are clarifying a undeveloped sense of spirituality.
    Where?
    we fukin won boys

  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    "We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount...The world has achieved brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
    --General Omar Bradley
    For the first time in human history, institutional slavery was abolished by the House of Commons in 1833.

    And in 1948 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed by the nations of the world.

    And in the twentieth century in the West, women gained their emancipation.

    And in the last decades, the laws against child sexual abuse have been enforced in the West.

    So just recently the slaves have been freed, human rights have been acknowledged, women have been freed, and most important, children have been saved.

    And dare I say it, but the Sermon on the Mount achieved none of these over the past two thousand years.

    No wonder we find sermons a little tiresome.

  6. #26
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    We don't have to be prolifically more ethical than yesterday to be ethical giants.
    Maybe ethics is simpler than science.
    Maybe we've figured out all the ethics that are possible. Leaving only science to be figured.

    It's appropriate that a child would leave his old toybox and play with his new trucks.
    we fukin won boys

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Then explain the emergence of nationalism during the age of universal education.
    My country has a tradition of nationalism and it also has remnants of tribalism.

    My nation state has never known institutional slavery.

    It wrote and signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and enshrined them in law.

    It teaches and practises the equality of women and men - indeed, our Commander-in-Chief is a women.

    And we vigourously defend the rights of children and vigourously prosecute any Australian who abuses children here or overseas.

    While the tribalists bash and kill women and sexually abuse their children. You can read all about it in, "Little Children are Sacred Report".

    And as I write, my nation state is spending billions of dollars to try to bring the tribalists into the modern world. However we are hampered by those Rousseauians who romanticise the tribal life.

    And you old silly, nationalism is the result of universal literacy. And no more than in your fine country where nationalism was borne on the backs of newspapers and news print.

  8. #28
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For the first time in human history, institutional slavery was abolished by the House of Commons in 1833.
    I've already refuted this before Victor in the thread you shamelessly drifted concerning Augustinian spirituality. Slavery was abolished in the Medieval period.

    And in 1948 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed by the nations of the world.
    Yeah and one of the nations that not only signed it, but was represented in the commission to write it was the USSR, ruled at that time by none other than Joseph Stalin.

    And in the twentieth century in the West, women gained their emancipation.
    And as a result the relations between the genders are at its lowest point. Women are more easily disrespected than ever before. Go feminism!

    So just recently the slaves have been freed, human rights have been acknowledged, women have been freed, and most important, children have been saved.
    And dare I say it, but the Sermon on the Mount achieved none of these over the past two thousand years.
    Well so much for your claim of being a Judeo-Greek-Christian. You've shown your true colors.

    Not to mention you have exposed your utter ignorance of the history here. The Sermon on the Mount had much to do with reshaping the morality that governed the Western world and still effects us to this day. There's much information out there about this, it's literally astonding anybody would deny it.

    Perhaps it should be noted that many of the basic Liberal attitudes you mentioned above have their sources in the morality forged by the Sermon on the Mount. Carl Schmitt most famously first exposed this in Political Theology, concerning how Liberalism is largely based upon secularised theological concepts.

    No wonder we find sermons a little tiresome.
    It's not sermons, but your asinine blatherings that are tiresome.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    We don't have to be prolifically more ethical than yesterday to be ethical giants.
    Maybe ethics is simpler than science.
    Maybe we've figured out all the ethics that are possible. Leaving only science to be figured.

    It's appropriate that a child would leave his old toybox and play with his new trucks.
    We have over the last one hundred and eighty years made giant ethical strides that have not been matched in the two hundred thousand years of human history.

    This is so extraordinary that it demands an explanation.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    My country has a tradition of nationalism and it also has remnants of tribalism.

    My nation state has never known institutional slavery.

    It wrote and signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and enshrined them in law.

    It teaches and practises the equality of women and men - indeed, our Commander-in-Chief is a women.

    And we vigourously defend the rights of children and vigourously prosecute any Australian who abuses children here or overseas.

    While the tribalists bash and kill women and sexually abuse their children. You can read all about it in, "Little Children are Sacred Report".

    And as I write, my nation state is spending billions of dollars to try to bring the tribalists into the modern world. However we are hampered by those Rousseauians who romanticise the tribal life.

    And you old silly, nationalism is the result of universal literacy. And no more than in your fine country where nationalism was borne on the backs of newspapers and news print.
    All of which doesn't even address my point. You just love to see your own words on screen.

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