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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    BTW, Crowsie, why did you want me to post a link to this site anyway?

    ...I'm thinking the original purpose here was lost a LOOOOOONG time ago...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    BTW, Crowsie, why did you want me to post a link to this site anyway?

    ...I'm thinking the original purpose here was lost a LOOOOOONG time ago...
    I thought people might enjoy looking at it. I thought it was a very well-done example of its ilk.

    And, as I recall, my question was "Where should I put it," not "Would you please post this."

    The site reminded me of a scrap of TV show we saw when we were at the beach. The studio was filled with dinosaur replicas. Some fellow who could have contributed to R2B was waving a National Geographic magazine around and referring to it as propaganda.

    Back in 1992, I picked up a newspaper that had a newly discovered Lagosuchus on the front page. This is a dino that could be a link between dinos and birds, so it was of great interest to me. I commented about it to the sales clerk who responded, "Do you really believe in evolution?"

    That seemed like such a strange question. It still does. Every now and then I think, "One person's science is another person's speculation."

    I still want to know how evolution skeptics explain fossils of things that well-predate records of humans. Does their divinity--like Loki--race around burying manufactured fossils to fool the non-believers? Or are the skeptics the fools, closing their minds to the evidence their deity has left?

    On another level, is any of this pertinent to daily existence?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    And, as I recall, my question was "Where should I put it," not "Would you please post this."
    :P

    I was showing initiative -- normally you get to decide where everything goes, and I don't take decisive action. <roll eyes> Well, I learned my lesson!

    Actually, I think I did state the question correctly earlier in the thread... (You asked me, "Where should this go?")

    I still want to know how evolution skeptics explain fossils of things that well-predate records of humans. Does their divinity--like Loki--race around burying manufactured fossils to fool the non-believers? Or are the skeptics the fools, closing their minds to the evidence their deity has left?
    I think some of the exhibits in the new creationist museum mentioned some of their very vague theories on the matter. I haven't heard the "Dinosaur fossils are [fakes] planted by God [or whomever]!" theory for a long time, though, and then it was from the very fundamentalist groups.

    I know in the 70's it was going around that human footprints and dinosaur footprints had been found in the same strata (suggesting they coexisted), but soon enough scientists noted that they were not human footprints at all, just misidentified. Some creationists STILL quote that as if it's true, but the more mainstream crowd is telling them to stop. In any case, that's simply one small example out of many to say that the creationist crowd is not even in agreement, there are various factions that all disagree with each other as well as those are not Christians.

    I think the evolution skeptics more say that the skeletons certainly exist and are authentic; but they state that either the skeletons were of different species and that the species can't be shown to have descended from each other, or something similar ... basically, evolution is just a theory, and they find different criticisms of the mechanisms supposedly driving evolution.

    (For example, some of those who BECAME the ID people said that gradual macro-evolution was impossible because too many body structures needed to evolve simultaneously, and the organism would have died without some of those structural changes occurring at once. This was before the theories of long periods of evolutionary stagnation occurred, then there'd be a cataclysmic change.)

    In any case, I think the ID people say it's mere conjecture and not proven and doesn't make good betting odds. I think we will see a lot of changes over the next number of years due to our having mapped the human genome and simply being able to do remarkable amounts of DNA testing that were not possible previously. The public discussion seems to really trail science/cutting-edge thought by about 30 years, and it's not unusual to find Bible criticism documents or creationist "proof" documents that were written 70-80 years ago and debunked countless times already.

    On another level, is any of this pertinent to daily existence?
    In one sense, yes -- depending on where you came from, you might have a particular meaning to fulfill with your life.

    In another sense, not really. We each have to make decisions based on what we value, and can do whatever we think is important, regardless of all these things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    :P

    I was showing initiative -- normally you get to decide where everything goes, and I don't take decisive action. <roll eyes> Well, I learned my lesson!
    Silly J, I don't decide a whole lot, really. On the other hand, I have a thriving interest in information categorization and accessibility, so I tend to speak up faster on those topics.
    Actually, I think I did state the question correctly earlier in the thread... (You asked me, "Where should this go?")
    Fair enough.
    I think some of the exhibits in the new creationist museum mentioned some of their very vague theories on the matter. I haven't heard the "Dinosaur fossils are [fakes] planted by God [or whomever]!" theory for a long time, though, and then it was from the very fundamentalist groups.
    You've heard that one before? I thought hoped I was making it up.
    ...
    In any case, I think the ID people say it's mere conjecture and not proven and doesn't make good betting odds. I think we will see a lot of changes over the next number of years due to our having mapped the human genome and simply being able to do remarkable amounts of DNA testing that were not possible previously. The public discussion seems to really trail science/cutting-edge thought by about 30 years, and it's not unusual to find Bible criticism documents or creationist "proof" documents that were written 70-80 years ago and debunked countless times already.
    D'ya think that has anything to do with the pyramid effect, where the newest stuff takes a long time to reach the broadest dissemination? Or some other reason?
    In one sense, yes -- depending on where you came from, you might have a particular meaning to fulfill with your life.

    In another sense, not really. We each have to make decisions based on what we value, and can do whatever we think is important, regardless of all these things.
    I recall Nicole Kidman, that renowned philosopher , said that her life became much simpler after she stopped asking, "Why?" That's another quote that I carry around with me. In moments of indecision, when I start falling down the Ti rabbit-hole, I ask myself if knowing "Why?" matters. If it will make less than 97% difference, I stop asking.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I recall Nicole Kidman, that renowned philosopher , said that her life became much simpler after she stopped asking, "Why?" That's another quote that I carry around with me. In moments of indecision, when I start falling down the Ti rabbit-hole, I ask myself if knowing "Why?" matters. If it will make less than 97% difference, I stop asking.
    Life is always simpler for people who don't question why. It is the eqivalent of giving up your humanity and reverting to a lower animal. Humans are the only creature known to question their environment. If I didn't question everything I encounter and make decisions based on answers I would have hoped someone would have shot me in the head.
    Question everything especially yourself.

    Opivy1980

  6. #26
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opivy1980 View Post
    Life is always simpler for people who don't question why. It is the eqivalent of giving up your humanity and reverting to a lower animal. Humans are the only creature known to question their environment. If I didn't question everything I encounter and make decisions based on answers I would have hoped someone would have shot me in the head.
    This is an occasion when asking "Why?" would have been a wise idea before posting.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    This is an occasion when asking "Why?" would have been a wise idea before posting.
    I was refering to Nichole Kidman's comment not yours. I meant people who never question not people who question, but don't vocalize it.
    Question everything especially yourself.

    Opivy1980

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    You've heard that one before? I thought hoped I was making it up.
    Sigh. Where's that "sad banana" smiley, I think I need it...

    Yes, there is a lot of gobbledy-gook out there. When my MIL's father died, he left behind many books of that sort of thinking, things published in the 60's or early 70's. And unfortunately, my MIL's brother (my UIL?) absorbed all that; he worked many years as a CEO for various companies and was very competent, but in the area of creation science, well... his knowledge was very limited. I don't discuss those things with him, it's pointless.

    D'ya think that has anything to do with the pyramid effect, where the newest stuff takes a long time to reach the broadest dissemination? Or some other reason?
    I don't really know. I haven't observed it in other settings, which might help me see a pattern. My guess is that there is a buffer zone out there -- that the items trickle down through the few people of curious bent enough to explore them, and then hit the wall because it's so hard to make headway against a faith system that predetermines what information is acceptable and what information is discounted immediately.

    And it goes both ways: The religious people won't buy into the ideas until they see that their beliefs won't be challenged, while the skeptics who are offended by the religious people (and in essence just end up reacting/pushing back against the belief system, rather than necessarily building their own) then put together all of their arguments against those positions (silly or not) and recycle their OWN collection of ammunition. Both sides are entrenched, and new information is not permitted inside.

    I recall Nicole Kidman, that renowned philosopher ,
    Yes, she's wonderful, isn't she?

    Wonderful actor (INFJ?)...and beautiful too.

    said that her life became much simpler after she stopped asking, "Why?" That's another quote that I carry around with me. In moments of indecision, when I start falling down the Ti rabbit-hole, I ask myself if knowing "Why?" matters. If it will make less than 97&#37; difference, I stop asking.
    Yes, there's something to be said about that. We only have so much mental bandwidth, especially as we get older and have more information to deal with and more responsibilities to juggle. Pragmatism and prioritization is important for maintaining sanity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Opivy1980 View Post
    Life is always simpler for people who don't question why. It is the eqivalent of giving up your humanity and reverting to a lower animal. Humans are the only creature known to question their environment. If I didn't question everything I encounter and make decisions based on answers I would have hoped someone would have shot me in the head.
    You live such a violent life... (lol)

    Seriously, yes, question everything and let curiosity drive you; but eventually (and maybe it's part of getting decrepit like me) you only have so much energy and time to really chase things down.

    For example, I'd love to read more extensively about the topics we've discussed today, but based on my energy level, relational responsibilities, and other things, I have to prioritize my focus. So squeeze in things here and there, but unfortunately not enough room to be an expert on everything... I still have tons of books stacked here that I haven't opened yet, that I thought would be interesting to read.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    This is the only question I would like answered:

    If A is a set of religious statements, then what can you tell me about any x, where x is an element of A?

    I cannot think of anything which could be reliably inferred from the simple fact that A is a set of religious statements, or at least anything which might be useful in demarcating religious statements from nonreligious statements.

    The same does not hold for science:

    If B is a set of scientific statements, then what can you tell me about any x, where x is an element of B?

    From this we can reliably infer that x has empirical content, or is nontautological i.e. falsifiable. That is the way we demarcate between scientific and nonscientific theories, in that scientific theories can be criticised in a manner which nonscientific theories cannot, that is by experiment and observation.

    As far as I can tell, to say that set A is a set of religious statements tells us absolutely nothing about any element of A, since whatever criterion we adopt, such as 'not reality-based,' 'concerning the supernatural,' or 'nonscientific,' we end up permitting into set A, too much, or too little.

    For example, 'nonscientific' permits far too much, since all of mathematics and metaphysics, including metascience would be classed as religoius. Whereas 'not reality-based' permits too little, since almost all traditional religions make very strong claims about what reality is like, indeed one of the hallmarks of such traditions is that all facts confirm the theory.

    I am beginning to believe that the word "religion" is quite superfluous, and without any meaningful content. It has no significance except that which people treat it, but is otherwise quite arbitrary. Somewhat like the emporers new clothes, it carries around a mystique, as though it refers to something important, but upon closer scrutiny there simply does not seem to be anything there.

    If this is true, then Gould's notion that religion and science occupy nonoverlapping majisteria is actually accurate, but only because religion has no majisteria to speak of. The guys at Reasons to Believe actually have it right in this regard, even if they have it severely and most spectacularly wrong in almsot every other.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sigh. Where's that "sad banana" smiley, I think I need it...

    Yes, there is a lot of gobbledy-gook out there. When my MIL's father died, he left behind many books of that sort of thinking, things published in the 60's or early 70's. And unfortunately, my MIL's brother (my UIL?) absorbed all that; he worked many years as a CEO for various companies and was very competent, but in the area of creation science, well... his knowledge was very limited. I don't discuss those things with him, it's pointless.



    I don't really know. I haven't observed it in other settings, which might help me see a pattern. My guess is that there is a buffer zone out there -- that the items trickle down through the few people of curious bent enough to explore them, and then hit the wall because it's so hard to make headway against a faith system that predetermines what information is acceptable and what information is discounted immediately.

    And it goes both ways: The religious people won't buy into the ideas until they see that their beliefs won't be challenged, while the skeptics who are offended by the religious people (and in essence just end up reacting/pushing back against the belief system, rather than necessarily building their own) then put together all of their arguments against those positions (silly or not) and recycle their OWN collection of ammunition. Both sides are entrenched, and new information is not permitted inside.



    Yes, she's wonderful, isn't she?

    Wonderful actor (INFJ?)...and beautiful too.



    Yes, there's something to be said about that. We only have so much mental bandwidth, especially as we get older and have more information to deal with and more responsibilities to juggle. Pragmatism and prioritization is important for maintaining sanity...



    You live such a violent life... (lol)

    Seriously, yes, question everything and let curiosity drive you; but eventually (and maybe it's part of getting decrepit like me) you only have so much energy and time to really chase things down.

    For example, I'd love to read more extensively about the topics we've discussed today, but based on my energy level, relational responsibilities, and other things, I have to prioritize my focus. So squeeze in things here and there, but unfortunately not enough room to be an expert on everything... I still have tons of books stacked here that I haven't opened yet, that I thought would be interesting to read.
    I am actually running out of reading material exact opposite problem
    Question everything especially yourself.

    Opivy1980

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