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  1. #81
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "Externalities" may be influenced in any number of different ways using any number of different methods. We're talking about a book that prescribes a very specific method for manipulating people into liking you. While I have no problem with the book as far as its potential usefulness to salespeople, I am loath to recommend it as a way of winning friends. Too much about the methods seems to approach dishonesty, and the intent behind wishing to "win" (note the conquering metaphor) friends reads as neither authentic nor useful for forging long-term friendships. Just my opinion.
    Can you please say what some of those differing methods are that aren't already explained in the book? How do you begin a friendship with someone?

    I've read the book and Carnegie reiterates over and over that sincerity and authenticity is the key. People can sense when you're just going through the motions and being empty in dealing with them. People apply methods and principles to all different types of areas life. Why is applying principles towards people so distasteful?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #82
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I have not read the book- I'm already pleased with my ability to win friends and influence people.

    I also fear that the book may fear to mention one of my best weapons- cleavage
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #83
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I also fear that the book may fear to mention one of my best weapons- cleavage
    Brown is the new black. Thursday is the new Friday. Butt cleavage is the new cleavage.

    That reminds me though....

    I used to sit in front of this girl in Algebra class back in high school. She would try to get my attention so I'd turn around then she'd sit up and push her cleavage into my face, which would make me blush and her laugh. Ah... high school. Ah... cleavage.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  4. #84
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    cracklotage is no declotage!

    nothing more fun than making someone blush though... it's the greatest thrill that a girl can get with her clothes on!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #85
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Again, not manipulation, unless by manipulation, you mean behaving in ways to make yourself less odious.
    You're talking about each individual tactic taken in isolation (such as not criticizing, or not arguing, or "creating eager interest in you"). Of course, when we look at some of these things individually they will seem like they are innocuous enough (though I don't know about stuff like "let them feel like it was their idea", and "get the other person saying yes, yes, yes immediately"). However, I'm talking about the total program. The idea is that you set out with a list of strategies, deploy them on your "target", and win them over to yourself. It's not the strategies that are the problem, but the leverage that is involved in unilaterally influencing another person (regardless of how positive the outcomes may be). It's a power issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Winning is not a zero sum situation. When you win, the other person doesn't lose. When you WIN the love of your beloved, is this conquering? Or, is it earning something of immeasurable value?
    I've never conceptualized "love" in terms of winning, so I don't know. And whether the other person loses or not is irrelevant. I'm talking about the dynamics of the act of influencing, not the desirability of the outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Have you read the book? How long ago?
    Yes, I have read the book, otherwise I would not have commented. I read it two years ago for an internship seminar in my undergrad program. Why? Is it that difficult to imagine that different readers will have different interpretations of the same text?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #86
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Yes, I have read the book, otherwise I would not have commented. I read it two years ago for an internship seminar in my undergrad program. Why? Is it that difficult to imagine that different readers will have different interpretations of the same text?
    Not at all. Just curious if you were talking out your ass. Like you say, different interpretations. Is it possible we project ourselves into the book? For example, I would imagine that more extraverted people would be less likely to have a problem with this book.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #87
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've read the book and Carnegie reiterates over and over that sincerity and authenticity is the key. People can sense when you're just going through the motions and being empty in dealing with them. People apply methods and principles to all different types of areas life. Why is applying principles towards people so distasteful?
    I guess it's the oddness of having to will yourself into authenticity, or to be sincere...being conscious of whether or not you are sincere or authentic seems to undermine that very authenticity or sincerity. And too often what we get is just a very good simulation. In other words, how are you being authentic if you have to practice, control, and deploy authenticity in measures? It seems sort of like a contradictory concept. If I am being authentic about something, then I don't need to know or control how authentic I'm being.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #88
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Not at all. Just curious if you were talking out your ass. Like you say, different interpretations. Is it possible we project ourselves into the book? For example, I would imagine that more extraverted people would be less likely to have a problem with this book.
    Probably. Is that the trend so far in this thread? I haven't been keeping up.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #89
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I guess it's the oddness of having to will yourself into authenticity, or to be sincere...being conscious of whether or not you are sincere or authentic seems to undermine that very authenticity or sincerity. And too often what we get is just a very good simulation. In other words, how are you being authentic if you have to practice, control, and deploy authenticity in measures? It seems sort of like a contradictory concept. If I am being authentic about something, then I don't need to know or control how authentic I'm being.
    Now you have a valid point.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #90
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I guess it's the oddness of having to will yourself into authenticity, or to be sincere...being conscious of whether or not you are sincere or authentic seems to undermine that very authenticity or sincerity. And too often what we get is just a very good simulation. In other words, how are you being authentic if you have to practice, control, and deploy authenticity in measures? It seems sort of like a contradictory concept. If I am being authentic about something, then I don't need to know or control how authentic I'm being.
    I think that you may be interpreting what it means to be authentic and insincere in the wrong way. The basic desire to want to do something may need cultivation. That doesn't necessarily corrupt the desire or the intention. If I want to do something but I don't know how, I'm going to learn how to do it. If I want to know how to be a good listener, learn and practice good listening skills. If I want to be a better boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse I make the necessary internal and external changes to signify this. If I want to increase my critical thinking skills I do exercises that require that ability and learn techniques that strengthen it. Just because you got that information from a self-help book doesn't nullify it. Sometimes being a "better" person means purposely taking a route the forces you to exercise patience, understanding, tolerance, and judiciousness because you realize that it's not beneficial to you or the other person to do otherwise.

    If the basic desire to win friends and influence people is already within you then you take the necessary measures to achieve this don't you? Even if you do this stuff without thinking you're still doing it. So maybe Carnegie's mistake was just one of efficiency; compiling all this basic common sense stuff into one manipulative little package.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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