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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Eh, when people don't like me, they're usually too afraid I'm going to hit them to offer any criticism whatsoever. I've always had this intimidating presence, no idea why. *carves tic-tac-toe pattern into upper arm with Rambo knife*
    You're not being unlikable enough, if you push it they usually throw everything back at you and you hear what they really think.

  2. #72
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    You guys, it totally works.

    Even on the forum. And people like it. Done artfully and skillfully you wouldn't even know it happened to you. All you know is you like a person. It doesn't have to be deep and meaningful.

    Think about all the people you come into contact with on a regular basis. People at school or work or church or wherever. This works on levels of familiarity with a person

    Acquaintance, associate, companion, friend refer to a person with whom one is in contact. An acquaintance is someone recognized by sight or someone known, though not intimately: a casual acquaintance. An associate is a person who is often in one's company, usually because of some work, enterprise, or pursuit in common: a business associate. A companion is a person who shares one's activities, fate, or condition: a traveling companion; companion in despair. A friend is a person with whom one is on intimate terms and for whom one feels a warm affection: a trusted friend. 3. familiarity, awareness.
    Like synarch said this book is about basic likability. The name of the book is How To WIN Friends And Influence People. You know how you win friends and influence people? You comment on their blog, you compliment them in the picture thread, you leave visitor messages on their profile, you send them a friendship request, you leave them positive reputation comments, you agree with them in a debate, you sympathize with them when they have a problem, you send friendly private messages to each other, you trade witticisms and jokes back and forth in a thread. What exactly do you all think this is? It's not rocket science and you do it all the time yourself. I used forum examples since they're easier to access at the moment. All these things make a person more appealing and endearing to you. This is manipulation. Do you mind though? Probably not.

    Maybe I'm drawing the incorrect conclusions about the negative responses towards the book but it seems to me that those who use the methods described are lacking in integrity or something. The whole sincerity vs. manipulation thing; if I tell you I like your shoes I'm trying to manipulate you or I don't mean what I say. Who knows really if the person is sincere or not (just like who knows if the person leaving you that visitor message really thinks you're funny or not), but do you automatically assume what they're saying is an attempt at malicious manipulation?

    These are the basic tenets of the book. 95% of it is good solid advice on how to deal with people. Notice how many times the word "sincerely" or "sincere" is used. No one is telling you to lie or be deceitful about anything. Think about if anyone you're friendly with on the forum does any of these things to you or if you do it with anyone else.

    From wiki

    Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
    • "Don't criticize, condemn or complain."
    • "Give honest and sincere appreciation."
    • "Arouse in the other person an eager want."

    Six Ways to Make People Like You
    • "Become genuinely interested in other people."
    • "Smile."
    • "Remember that a man's name is to him the sweetest and most important sound in any language."
    • "Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves."
    • "Talk in the terms of the other man's interest."
    • "Make the other person feel important and do it sincerely."

    Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
    • "Avoid arguments."
    • "Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never tell someone they are wrong."
    • "If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically."
    • "Begin in a friendly way."
    • "Start with questions the other person will answer yes to."
    • "Let the other person do the talking."
    • "Let the other person feel the idea is his/hers."
    • "Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view."
    • "Sympathize with the other person."
    • "Appeal to noble motives."
    • "Dramatize your ideas."
    • "Throw down a challenge."

    Nine Ways to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
    • "Begin with praise and honest appreciation."
    • "Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly."
    • "Talk about your own mistakes first."
    • "Ask questions instead of giving direct orders."
    • "Let the other person save face."
    • "Praise every improvement."
    • "Give them a fine reputation to live up to."
    • "Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct."
    • "Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest."
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #73
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    PM, you're actually right but admittedly it's so much more fun to be a cranky pants and say "Bah Humbug, I'm not gonna go out of my way to be nice to nobody!"

  4. #74
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    PM, you're actually right but admittedly it's so much more fun to be a cranky pants and say "Bah Humbug, I'm not gonna go out of my way to be nice to nobody!"
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    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
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  5. #75
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Yeah, some of this stuff is like common sense that's being spelled out for you in the form of a book. My problem, I guess, is that presenting it in the form of a book makes it seem like there are set formulae that when deliberately used automatically "wins" you friends. There is a very unilateral power relationship prescribed between the person trying to win friends and the the friends to be won, and it reminds me a little bit of predation.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #76
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    PM, you're actually right but admittedly it's so much more fun to be a cranky pants and say "Bah Humbug, I'm not gonna go out of my way to be nice to nobody!"
    Believe you me, you can work being a crankypants into your shtick and people will love it! It's not that rigid, but a few of these are key to being able to do it. If these things aren't something that's natural to you it's going to come off as insincere so until/unless you authentically care about people then don't do it.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #77
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Yeah, some of this stuff is like common sense that's being spelled out for you in the form of a book.
    Common sense ain't so common. Plus, a lot of introverted types are socially retarded and could use a primer on such "common sense".

    My problem, I guess, is that presenting it in the form of a book makes it seem like there are set formulae that when deliberately used automatically "wins" you friends. There is a very unilateral power relationship prescribed between the person trying to win friends and the the friends to be won, and it reminds me a little bit of predation.
    You have to break it down thematically into tactics (formulae) so that it is comprehensible. A mishmash without organization would not be useful. Predation? Come on! Again, typical introvert reluctance to influence externalities.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #78
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Common sense ain't so common. Plus, a lot of introverted types are socially retarded and could use a primer on such "common sense".

    You have to break it down thematically into tactics (formulae) so that it is comprehensible. A mishmash without organization would not be useful. Predation? Come on! Again, typical introvert reluctance to influence externalities.
    "Externalities" may be influenced in any number of different ways using any number of different methods. We're talking about a book that prescribes a very specific method for manipulating people into liking you. While I have no problem with the book as far as its potential usefulness to salespeople, I am loath to recommend it as a way of winning friends. Too much about the methods seems to approach dishonesty, and the intent behind wishing to "win" (note the conquering metaphor) friends reads as neither authentic nor useful for forging long-term friendships. Just my opinion.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #79
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I haven't read it. That's why I have no friends and don't influence anyone.
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  10. #80
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "Externalities" may be influenced in any number of different ways using any number of different methods. We're talking about a book that prescribes a very specific method for manipulating people into liking you. While I have no problem with the book as far as its potential usefulness to salespeople, I am loath to recommend it as a way of winning friends. Too much about the methods seems to approach dishonesty, and the intent behind wishing to "win" (note the conquering metaphor) friends reads as neither authentic nor useful for forging long-term friendships. Just my opinion.
    • Again, not manipulation, unless by manipulation, you mean behaving in ways to make yourself less odious.
    • Winning is not a zero sum situation. When you win, the other person doesn't lose. When you WIN the love of your beloved, is this conquering? Or, is it earning something of immeasurable value?
    • Have you read the book? How long ago?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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