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  1. #41
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    Default Predestination

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    As Victor stated, the original audience for this book was the American salesman.
    The problem, I think, is a larger cultural issue.

    Dale believed in the doctrine of the Elect. And this is a founding doctrine of his culture - and suffuses the culture today.

    And prosperity - wealth - were the sign you were one of the Elect.

    And Dale was wealthy beyond imagination, so he believed he was predestined for salvation.

    And being a good man, he wanted to save us too - in the only way he knew.

    Just as God created us in His own image, Dale wanted to create us in his image.

    And his image was that of a businessman.

    The doctrine of Predestination, the Elect, and wealth as a sign of salvation, have shaped a whole culture.

    So much so, that it is commonly said that the business of this culture is business.

    And so much so, that this culture has two political parties - both parties of business - there is no social democratic party, as in other democracies. So this culture is essentially a one party State.

    And Dale Carnegie is its avatar and, "How to Make Friends and Influence People", is its bible.

  2. #42
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    Party hardy.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I think this is a book primarily for extroverts. It is about breadth rather than depth in relationships.
    The part about being "genuinely interested" in others: this is definitely easier for some types (e.g. ENFP/ENTP) than others. Their focus is naturally outward, they are naturally interested in other people/objects. It energizes them. I'm not like that. Most people bore my pants off. I'm sure it's mutual too. I'd like it if there were more people in the world that were genuinely interesting to me, or even tolerably so, but it is the way it is.

    I don't think you can "win" true friends, you have to count yourself lucky when you stumble across them.
    Yes, good points.

    Comment in general:

    I think there's a difference between being tactful towards other's feelings and going around smoozing like a used car salesman to manipulate others into liking you.


    Glancing through the thread, I see a pattern of external judgers finding value in the book and internal judgers being repulsed by the book.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The problem, I think, is a larger cultural issue.

    Dale believed in the doctrine of the Elect. And this is a founding doctrine of his culture - and suffuses the culture today.

    And prosperity - wealth - were the sign you were one of the Elect.

    And Dale was wealthy beyond imagination, so he believed he was predestined for salvation.

    And being a good man, he wanted to save us too - in the only way he knew.

    Just as God created us in His own image, Dale wanted to create us in his image.

    And his image was that of a businessman.

    The doctrine of Predestination, the Elect, and wealth as a sign of salvation, have shaped a whole culture.

    So much so, that it is commonly said that the business of this culture is business.

    And so much so, that this culture has two political parties - both parties of business - there is no social democratic party, as in other democracies. So this culture is essentially a one party State.

    And Dale Carnegie is its avatar and, "How to Make Friends and Influence People", is its bible.

    And Gordon Gekko told us all in 1987: "Greed is GOOD!" (May as well have been Greed is God. )

    Rod Tidwell (1996): "Show me the MONEY!"

    People see these movies, forget the moral message and instead parrot the cheap slogans as justification for a society based on what a person does and what they can produce as the sole aspect of their worth as people. More of anything is good, even relationships. Stack friends up like cord wood.

  5. #45
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    And look at the crisis those attitudes have landed us in.

  6. #46
    Rubber Nipple Salesperson ladypinkington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    And look at the crisis those attitudes have landed us in.
    What do you mean?
    I would be interested to hear more.
    Me and hubby made an RPG Nutrition Game
    Play and Vote July 14th to Aug 14th
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    Listening to you makes me think about Kramer on Seinfeld,lol- and I mean that in a good way as I like his character- he was the one who could say to the girl who had a big nose- "Your just as pretty as any other girl- you just need a nose job" and then when she did get a nosejob she was butchered and he was the only one who said so- in the end he ended up with the girl as she appreciated his honesty.
    Kramer! KRAMER? Weird freaky misfit goofball Kramer with the brown trousers?

    He ended up with the girl because she was f-u-g-e-r-l-y!

    I always fancied myself as an Elaine, maybe a Jerry, George at a stretch, but Kramer!?

    Maybe I need to read me that book some more....

  8. #48
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    What do you mean?
    I would be interested to hear more.
    I mean the financial crisis the US is in.
    I believe that deep down at the foundation, it's a crisis of bad character.

  9. #49
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I've always been a little different and not so good at making friends.

    My parents loved me and recognised this so bought me Dale's book. And interestingly they bought me, "How to Make Friends and Influence People", when I was just a little boy.

    But even at that early age I could see it was fake and alien.

    And as I grew older I came to recognise the context in which it was written and for whom it was written.

    It was written for American salesmen.

    Americans love salesmen - their greatest tragedy is even called, "Death of a Salesman".

    And we all know that in America when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made.

    So my parents, with the best intentions in the world, tried to turn me into an American fake.

    Fortunately my stomach revolted at this and I vomited up Dale Carnegie's, "How to Make Friends and Influence People".
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    And Gordon Gekko told us all in 1987: "Greed is GOOD!" (May as well have been Greed is God. )

    Rod Tidwell (1996): "Show me the MONEY!"

    People see these movies, forget the moral message and instead parrot the cheap slogans as justification for a society based on what a person does and what they can produce as the sole aspect of their worth as people. More of anything is good, even relationships. Stack friends up like cord wood.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    I was wondering if anyone has put into practice any of the priniciples they have learned from this book and what their experiences were as a result.

    I was also interested in learning what others might have agreed with and found helpful or found disagreeable and why and why not.

    What are your thoughts and experiences in getting people to like you, winning people to your ways of thinking, and changing bad behavior?
    The

    you! you! you!

    of Carnegie

    is about

    me! me! me!
    Last edited by proteanmix; 10-22-2008 at 09:26 PM. Reason: merged posts

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Thank you.
    No worries mate.

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