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  1. #21
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    @Mom
    right, but you've reinvented yourself to make yourself more socially acceptable. If other people weren't so sensitive, you wouldn't have to. You'd still be your true self.

    Has no one ever hurt you with his opinion of you when he/she was being true to himself? Did you resent it? Did you feel angry? Or were you philosophical - that's just his opinion? Perhaps you felt enlightened or grateful?

    There are two issues here - if someone asks for your opinion you might feel freer to give it; even if it's unfavorable that might be justified. But there are a lot of folks out there giving their opinions when they weren't even asked, just because they're being themselves.

    So you don't have to compliment someone's haircut if you don't like it, but neither do you have to lay your negative opinion of it on someone either.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  2. #22
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    fair enough, but cooperation doesnt necessarily require them to like you, just respect you.

    anyways, even if they dont, there is always plenty of alternatives to asking nicely
    If you, as a "Carnegie-ite", handle it right, hopefully you won't have to choose which of these two qualities that you want them to associate with you. In fact, they may even feel that they respect you more than they like you. Oftentimes "validating"* someone's opinions, without even having ever specifically and verbally supported their POV, still leaves them the impression that you agree with those principles, and ( unless something comes along in the interim to cause you to behave differently ) therefore they may feel that they "respect" you even more than they "like" you. If need be, "liking" often trumps "respecting" though, unless there is a rather obvious disadvantage to the likee's plan or "suggestion", which is a different matter, but can sometimes, even then, still be overcome..... if desired.

    * validation = letting them know you have "heard them out" and understand their POV, without agreeing or disagreeing. Like they teach in classes on how to argue constructively, you can re-state your opponent's "case" to see if you are on the same page. In many cases of validation you are not seen as an "opponent" because there was no need to get into that right then and there. If there ever comes a time when there is a need ( if you haven't changed your own mind about it by then ) then you can say something at that time, making your position clearer.

    Do I always do this ? No, because I'm not really a Carnegie-ite. But I can see it is very effective, and i've lost many times by digging in my heels and not doing things this way. In some cases the Carnegie-ite is so focused on being positive, and genuinely liking all parties concerned, that they don't even see it as manipulation or deception. On a further note, sometimes the differences between the parties concerned were nothing more than petty politics anyway, and people like this can sometimes smooth their ruffled feathers without anybody losing face, with it at worst coming down to some sparing application of euphemism or equivocations on minor points.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  3. #23
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Well aren't you just awesome. Thank you.

  4. #24
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    "Become genuinely interested in people."

    Don't look at it as being fake and forcing yourself to develop a genuine interest in people. Think of it as removing all the negative, fake, and irrational beliefs that you already have within you that prevent you from genuinely being interested in them in the first place.

    If you meet a fellow and don't even give him the time of day, how is that any more "real" than actually taking a moment and seeing if there's something you actually like about him? You can often find whatever you look for in a person. If you don't want to connect with people like that, that's great. You probably won't need to because you won't likely choose a career in which these skills are needed. If you do, though, this book can be helpful.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    "Become genuinely interested in people."

    Don't look at it as being fake and forcing yourself to develop a genuine interest in people. Think of it as removing all the negative, fake, and irrational beliefs that you already have within you that prevent you from genuinely being interested in them in the first place.

    If you meet a fellow and don't even give him the time of day, how is that any more "real" than actually taking a moment and seeing if there's something you actually like about him? You can often find whatever you look for in a person. If you don't want to connect with people like that, that's great. You probably won't need to because you won't likely choose a career in which these skills are needed. If you do, though, this book can be helpful.
    Gotta love ENTPs.

  6. #26
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    "Become genuinely interested in people."

    Don't look at it as being fake and forcing yourself to develop a genuine interest in people. Think of it as removing all the negative, fake, and irrational beliefs that you already have within you that prevent you from genuinely being interested in them in the first place.

    If you meet a fellow and don't even give him the time of day, how is that any more "real" than actually taking a moment and seeing if there's something you actually like about him? You can often find whatever you look for in a person. If you don't want to connect with people like that, that's great. You probably won't need to because you won't likely choose a career in which these skills are needed. If you do, though, this book can be helpful.
    Well said.

  7. #27
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    I've always been a little different and not so good at making friends.

    My parents loved me and recognised this so bought me Dale's book. And interestingly they bought me, "How to Make Friends and Influence People", when I was just a little boy.

    But even at that early age I could see it was fake and alien.

    And as I grew older I came to recognise the context in which it was written and for whom it was written.

    It was written for American salesmen.

    Americans love salesmen - their greatest tragedy is even called, "Death of a Salesman".

    And we all know that in America when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made.

    So my parents, with the best intentions in the world, tried to turn me into an American fake.

    Fortunately my stomach revolted at this and I vomited up Dale Carnegie's, "How to Make Friends and Influence People".

  8. #28
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    It had valid techniques that would help in business/networking situations. I have no hesitation employing methods that are strategically to my advantage when necessary. Nonetheless, as far as that genre of information is concerned, I prefer Yes!: 50 Scientifically Proven Ways to be Persuasive by Noah J. Goldstein.

    In friendships, I will only be my true, unfiltered self. Otherwise, there's no point.

  9. #29
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    I read it and it filled me with both anxiety and dread. It just reminded me of everything nearly everyone around me as tried to push me into being.

    I'd rather earn one or two really good friends than "win" a hundred psuedo-friends.

  10. #30
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    Has no one ever hurt you with his opinion of you when he/she was being true to himself? Did you resent it? Did you feel angry? Or were you philosophical - that's just his opinion? Perhaps you felt enlightened or grateful?

    So you don't have to compliment someone's haircut if you don't like it, but neither do you have to lay your negative opinion of it on someone either.
    Haircuts? Who cares about haircuts? If someone asks and I hate it, I'll tell them. I won't be cruel, (well, not always) but I try to be honest. I think it's respectful. I don't want people to lie to me, so why should I lie to them? If I say something is great, when it isn't, it devalues those occasions when I really do think something is great. People know if they get a compliment from me, it means something.

    The truth has never hurt me, it can sting for a bit, but it always makes me stronger. Lies/flattery are debasing, not upbuilding. I value people who know me well and tell me unpleasant things about myself, (not out of spite, but out of regard), people who reveal my blind spots - that's a useful service. I wish more people were so brave. I guess you have to be quite tough and sure of yourself to feel this way, and many people seem to be rather fragile.

    I think this is a book primarily for extroverts. It is about breadth rather than depth in relationships.
    The part about being "genuinely interested" in others: this is definitely easier for some types (e.g. ENFP/ENTP) than others. Their focus is naturally outward, they are naturally interested in other people/objects. It energizes them. I'm not like that. Most people bore my pants off. I'm sure it's mutual too. I'd like it if there were more people in the world that were genuinely interesting to me, or even tolerably so, but it is the way it is.

    I don't think you can "win" true friends, you have to count yourself lucky when you stumble across them.

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