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  1. #111
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, I'm not trying to needle you about this but how do you know these things about people unless you use some means of finding out this information? Very few people walk around with their ethical values on a custom tee.

    I'm guessing that if you want to find out if someone's independent you observe them long enough or you speak with them to know what their thoughts are on things, if they're funny, compassionate, whatever.

    Now when you're finding out where their head's at you are:

    • Genuinely interested in the other person?
    • Being a good listener? Encouraging that person to talk about themselves?
    • Talking in the terms of the other person's interest and disclosing yours?
    • Showing respect for the other person's opinions?
    • Beginning in a friendly way? (see once I saw that my insults were amusing to you I kept doing it. For as crazy at it was it was us being friendly with each other right?)
    • Giving honest and sincere appreciation?


    I'm just trying to figure out if you and Orangey disapprove of the concepts in the book on the whole or if they're just a few things that's souring everything for you. I don't agree with everything but it's enough in there that makes sense to me to know not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    I mostly use observation to find out about other people, as opposed to interaction, which taints pure observation and objectivity. Therefore, I frequently form opinions based on how they treat/behave around other people, rather than how they treat/view me.

    I have also realized recently that I often view people as objects or as systems, rather than as individuals. As such, I can be interested in someone in an impersonal way, much as I can be interested in plate tectonics or x-ray crystallography. I realise that probably sounds repugnant to an F....

    I can't make myself be interested in someone, either genuinely or artificially. They are either interesting to me, or they aren't. It's binary and almost immediate. I wouldn't know how to go about making someone more interesting then they inherently are, nor would I choose to.

    As for the book, I think the things that are of value in it are self-evident, which means the book itself has no value, for me, at any rate.

  2. #112
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, I'm not trying to needle you about this but how do you know these things about people unless you use some means of finding out this information? Very few people walk around with their ethical values on a custom tee.

    I'm guessing that if you want to find out if someone's independent you observe them long enough or you speak with them to know what their thoughts are on things, if they're funny, compassionate, whatever.

    Now when you're finding out where their head's at you are:

    • Genuinely interested in the other person?
    • Being a good listener? Encouraging that person to talk about themselves?
    • Talking in the terms of the other person's interest and disclosing yours?
    • Showing respect for the other person's opinions?
    • Beginning in a friendly way? (see once I saw that my insults were amusing to you I kept doing it. For as crazy at it was it was us being friendly with each other right?)
    • Giving honest and sincere appreciation?


    I'm just trying to figure out if you and Orangey disapprove of the concepts in the book on the whole or if they're just a few things that's souring everything for you. I don't agree with everything but it's enough in there that makes sense to me to know not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Okay, now that I've thought about this for a little bit, I think that my answer is as follows:

    It is not the specific tactics in the book that I disapprove of (though there are a couple that do bother me on their own), it's rather the whole concept of the book and its purpose. I think the best way to explain this would be through an illustration.

    Say there was someone that I was genuinely interested in. Because of the fact that I'm interested in them (and like Bluemonday said, I could be interested them from afar, the interest being the result of observing them and not necessarily their interaction with me), I will easily and automatically (without conscious decision) do most of the obvious things that Carnegie recommends doing in the book in order to get to know them better and become friends.

    If, on the other hand, I'm not interested in a person at all (for any reason, not that I'm some sort of curmudgeon or misanthrope...we all like, dislike, and plain don't care about some person or other in our lives), then no amount of practice will make me be able to perform those same things that I did with the person that I was interested in on this person. I simply won't care, and no amount of pretending to do so with the aid of the book will make me see the light.

    From this I conclude that the entire book is useless because the only situations in which I will need help being authentically interested in a person are the ones in which I am not actually interested in the person. Otherwise I automatically do most of those things.

    I appreciate, however, that maybe some people wouldn't do some of the things that the book recommends automatically, even if they were genuinely interested in the person that they're trying to win over. In that case I guess the book might be useful. But for me, the only reason I'd even consult it were if I really really wanted to make a false impression on somebody.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #113
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    As an aside, last week's This American Life (TAL) had an interesting (and relevant) 10-min. segment about a kid whose dad gave him Dale Carnegie's book with predictable results:
    .

    This American Life
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  4. #114
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    As an aside, last week's This American Life (TAL) had an interesting (and relevant) 10-min. segment about a kid whose dad gave him Dale Carnegie's book with predictable results:
    .

    This American Life
    Wow, haha, I guess it doesn't work for 11-year olds.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #115
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    My friend/boss/enemy (figure it out, huh? ) lists it as one of his favorite books, and I've thought it as potentially creepy, scheming power-mongering, or perhaps something that people should do. I mean, win friends and influence people. I don't know. The said person was revealed to be an ENTJ, and I was surprised. Although he had opposed me in some business matters, to my great loss, I've considered him greatly, genuinely likable. I've been cautious about him, too. But, ENTJ. Huh! Fits in with what I'd guess from ENTJs, too.

    So, gotta read it, I guess.. just to educate myself on the matter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #116
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    My free answer is: Be natural. That in itself is admirable enough. How I see it is treat others the way we want to be treated. Honestly welcome people who are different. It makes life RICH. =D

    One thing that's always crossed my mind about books like these are:
    1. It's another profitable gimmick. Tell people they aren't good enough. Make them feel like crap. Let them know what their flaws are. Then the author has x,y,z answers to market their solution. It may work short-term, not sure about long-term. [con+/--]

    2. The advice may help for some, those who really need it. If it's successful, then great! [pro+]

    Live & let live. If we learn to accept people for who they truly are, then it becomes a collaborative unconsciousness where people will want to work in harmony/unison with one another, at the same, bring out the 'Best' qualities within themselves. I think for those who are really popular, it's usually because they don't have to 'try' hard to achieve it. That's just who they are. For a book to tell people ways in which to behave- to me, is unnatural, inauthentic. We all have positive qualities within ourselves. Recognize. Rejoice it!

    So what if someone likes to be a bit more introverted? Respect that. So what if they're not all warm/cuddly? That's who they are! For those who are into the superficiality of having shallow friendships, so what? Just don't expect everyone else to be the same.

    My observation is: The more 'fake' or forcibly positive a person tries to be, the more unnatural he/she is, the less likable they will be. It's all in the vibes they give off. If they can't be true to themselves, who can be true to them? So, the author may as well publish several other sequels, because the real answer is: There are no absolute rules. If there are things that prevent oneself to be happy- Work on goals to achieve it, which should always stem from within, not without (the externals don't bring happiness, trust me). Enjoy life. Go with the flow. Laugh. Things will naturally work out for the best when we learn to be more genuinely understanding and humane to ourselves and to others.

    I tend to see things the Rogerian way. Treat people with unconditional positive regard. At heart, people just want validation for who they are. Little acts of kindness we share to people in general, including those who are a bit socially different, outcasted/or depressed, the more they will naturally want to be more sociable, happy. It's all in how we treat others in our daily lives. Every action has it's own consequences. Make it a good one! If someone's rude or crosses over our personal boundaries when all we've done was show them 'R'espect, then don't give them the time of day. It's their LOSS. It's about standing up for oneself when the situation calls for it. I hope that's not too much ta ask for? (Sorry so long- I wish I coulda shortened it.. Tehe). Great topic!

  7. #117
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    As such, I can be interested in someone in an impersonal way, much as I can be interested in plate tectonics or x-ray crystallography.
    Imagine you were observing me in the same way you look at plate tectonics or x-ray crystallography.

    What would you see?

  8. #118
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Coincidentally, they talked about this book recently on This American Life: This American Life
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #119
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Coincidentally, they talked about this book recently on This American Life: This American Life
    Refer to the post made about five posts prior to this one.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #120
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Haha. Shit.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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