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Why modern atheism is so shallow

Mycroft

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I wasn't disputing atheism, but nihilism and you know it.

Have you ever seen Hawkins in interview or read one of his books? That is not a man who believes in nothing.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I wasn't disputing atheism, but nihilism and you know it.

How was nihilism relevant to your comment?

Explain further how Dawkins is nihilistic. So far you only stated he seems to pay little regard to the 'subjective experience'.

It is clear that he pays little regard to religious 'subjective experience', though it is not clear that he regards all 'subjective experiences' as unimportant. Does Dawkins think that aesthetical judgments for example are unimportant?
 

millerm277

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Seems awfully nihilist and oblivious to me.

Nihilist, maybe, depends on your opinion. Not sure how it's oblivious. God and religion are fake. Okay, tell me what that has changed in your day to day life? What is it being oblivious of?

One can also debate wether you could call our world, surroundings, whatever..."extraordinary" or "beautiful" in its complexity and in certain aspects. From an objective or scientific stance you could definitely say it isn't.

There are certainly lots of things that are extraordinary and beautiful. I am in awe of scenery and things quite often. How does this relate to atheism? Okay, instead of being in awe of what "god" has created, you're now in awe of what has resulted from the natural processes of the planet. What's the big deal about that?
 

Mole

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The fact is that the father of MBTI was Carl Jung.

Jung was a fascist who freely and voluntarily supported the National Socialists.

Jung was a charismatic guru who tried to found his own religion, but only succeeded in founding a cult, of which MBTI is part.

No qualified psychometrician uses MBTI. And no psychometrician would even dream of using any personality test in the manner MBTI is used here.

MBTI is a form of soft fascism and anti-enlightenment.

This is important today because the Islamo-fascists have declared war on us and the Enlightenment.
 

Venom

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The fact is that the father of MBTI was Carl Jung.

Jung was a fascist who freely and voluntarily supported the National Socialists.

Jung was a charismatic guru who tried to found his own religion, but only succeeded in founding a cult, of which MBTI is part.

No qualified psychometrician uses MBTI. And no psychometrician would even dream of using any personality test in the manner MBTI is used here.

MBTI is a form of soft fascism and anti-enlightenment.

This is important today because the Islamo-fascists have declared war on us and the Enlightenment.

what's also funny is that on Dawkin's scale of 1 to 7, he uses C. G. Jung as his example for 100% theists by quoting Jung:

"I do not believe, I know." --C. G. Jung

Im not sure that I agree with the idea that he desired for his own religion. I think he had roots in christianity and wanted to incorporate his psych beliefs into the church... Its only after their rejection that its been relegated to cult status... well I guess if you count corporate america consulting firms as cults.

In a way, psychology is a "secular" religion. I believe that one day psychology will be entirely replaced by some combination of neuroscience, biochem and biophysics.

We're all willing to accept this MBTI crap, even with its confirmation biases and non-falsefiables, because its fun and because MBTI doesnt require us to pray to an unknown deity as if we knew its every want and desire.
 

Mole

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"I do not believe, I know." --C. G. Jung

Yes, there is the provisional truth and the Real Truth.

They are both true. So how can we distinguish between them?

The provisional truth is arrived at through the cognitive faculties. And the Real Truth is arrived at through the imagination.

The imagination is a form of trance. And a trance consists of turning off some of the cognitive faculties and turning on the imaginative faculties.

And over the millennia, trance has become very sophisticated. So we now have trances within trances - that is, while you are in a first trance, you induce a second trance within the first.

And of course you can induce a third trance within the second. So you have a trance, within a trance, within a trance.

By the time you get down to the fifth trance within the four trances above, some interesting things start to happen.

You lose touch with whatever is above the first trance. And that is reality. So in the fifth trance you lose touch with reality. And the fifth trance itself takes on the character of reality. In other words, the fifth trance is completely and totally compelling.

And it is at this moment that Revelation occurs.

And as we all know Revelation is the Real Truth.

So the Real Truth is closely related to the provisional truth - it is only separated by four layers of trance.
 

vince

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Have you ever seen Hawkins in interview or read one of his books? That is not a man who believes in nothing.

Who's Hawkins ? I thought this was about Dawkins..
There are definitely scientists enough with strong moral values or who belief in things like progress, prosperity, personal happiness, etc etc... - Carl Sagan to name one. I'm not trying to deny that.
 

vince

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How was nihilism relevant to your comment?

I literally used the word nihilistic. How much more explicit can I be ?

Explain further how Dawkins is nihilistic. So far you only stated he seems to pay little regard to the 'subjective experience'.

It is clear that he pays little regard to religious 'subjective experience', though it is not clear that he regards all 'subjective experiences' as unimportant. Does Dawkins think that aesthetical judgments for example are unimportant?

Maybe not. I shall take a more in depth look at Dawkins.

Anyway, disregard for aestethics and sorts, is very often the impression I get from "hardcore" atheists (maybe even the atheists with a dominant T like yourself). It's like there's no middle ground in the neverending debate between atheists on one side and (admittedly, utterly ridiculous) creationists on the other.
My initial response related to the question "are we doomed for atheism without awe ?" which I think is a very wise question. I personally -NF alert- do not belief in cold reasoning in important ethical debates. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
 

vince

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Okay, instead of being in awe of what "god" has created, you're now in awe of what has resulted from the natural processes of the planet. What's the big deal about that?

Exactly. I have awe for the natural processes of this earth, be it chemical processes, a bunch of ants, Niagara falls, whatnot. I have respect for someone who relates this to god, from their perspective - fine by me. But nihilists are the types who don't see aesthetics at all.
People in powerfull positions who lack this "awe" -wether contributed to god or nature- in day to day life are just as dangerous as religious people in power.
 

vince

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The fact is that the father of MBTI was Carl Jung.

Jung was a fascist who freely and voluntarily supported the National Socialists.

Jung was a charismatic guru who tried to found his own religion, but only succeeded in founding a cult, of which MBTI is part.

No qualified psychometrician uses MBTI. And no psychometrician would even dream of using any personality test in the manner MBTI is used here.

MBTI is a form of soft fascism and anti-enlightenment.

This is important today because the Islamo-fascists have declared war on us and the Enlightenment.

That's the most farfetched and outlandish thing I've read all day. You care to elaborate on that or are you just gonna make more claims without backing them up with anything substantial ?
 

Moiety

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I find Atheism per se, just as "mindless" as other forms of religion, really. Denying the existence of something for which we have no supporting or disproving evidence is just as fair as assuming it exists.

I'm not sure if this is really about atheism or atheism and agnosticism, but I am an agnostic in the sense that I don't completely discard the possibility that there is a god. I happily coexist with religious people and understand that they view the world differently. But that doesn't mean that just because there is some truth and spiritual gain to some religious ideologies, that they constitute any less of a "farce" in my eyes.
 

Venom

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People in powerfull positions who lack this "awe" -wether contributed to god or nature- in day to day life are just as dangerous as religious people in power.

nice try bill oriely :)... just because I lack a belief in God or wicca does not mean Im going to be like stalin if im in power. im sure you've heard of secular humanism.
 

Ivy

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I find Atheism per se, just as "mindless" as other forms of religion, really. Denying the existence of something for which we have no supporting or disproving evidence is just as fair as assuming it exists.

I think the argument against this is that since atheism is, by and large, "opt-in," it requires some thought up front whereas people who are born into religion and never doubt it never have that experience. However, IMO, kneejerk rebellion against one's religious upbringing is not a heck of a lot more thoughtful than never questioning one's religious upbringing. Either atheists or theists can mindlessly accept or lash out against religion, and either atheists or theists can carefully consider for themselves and arrive at a conclusion.
 

SolitaryWalker

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That's the most farfetched and outlandish thing I've read all day. You care to elaborate on that or are you just gonna make more claims without backing them up with anything substantial ?

Vince, relax please.

Victor's posts need not be interpreted as clear-cut statements. He does not seek to deliver a message, he just seeks to evoke an emotional reaction from others. He has not commitment to factual accuracy or logical consistency, as his claims stand, they are strictly non-sense. But nonetheless may be an interesting outlet for our imagination.

Besides, if you try to question the plausibility of his statements, he will just assume you don't like him, much like he did here.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=278739

It is also here where he states that his claims are purely 'rhetorical' and need not be analyzed logically. This supports my assertion in the first paragraph of this post.
 

Mycroft

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Who's Hawkins ? I thought this was about Dawkins..
There are definitely scientists enough with strong moral values or who belief in things like progress, prosperity, personal happiness, etc etc... - Carl Sagan to name one. I'm not trying to deny that.

Er, yeah. Dawkins.

I never have been much for details.

Anyway, as you'll discover if you do read one of his books, he is very much in awe at the greatness of the universe and its workings. He's a very passionate individual. (Although it should be noted that the passion with which an argument is presented has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is accurate or true.)

Sytpg said:
I find Atheism per se, just as "mindless" as other forms of religion, really. Denying the existence of something for which we have no supporting or disproving evidence is just as fair as assuming it exists.

So you won't think me silly for my belief in invisible hollow unicorns that glow and talk to me through airwaves? Fantastic! I was beginning to think I'd never find a hearing ear.

How can a unicorn be invisible and glow, you ask? They work in mysterious ways. Gosh. So close-minded.
 

Moiety

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I think the argument against this is that since atheism is, by and large, "opt-in," it requires some thought up front whereas people who are born into religion and never doubt it never have that experience.

Thinking without providing good arguments don't prove much though. Like you, I think kneejerk rebellion is not very thoughtful at all and I'm afraid it's still that kind of mentality that fuels a lot of atheists' drive.



So you won't think me silly for my belief in invisible hollow unicorns that glow and talk to me through airwaves? Fantastic! I was beginning to think I'd never find a hearing ear.

How can a unicorn be invisible and glow, you ask? They work in mysterious ways. Gosh. So close-minded.

I used the word fair for a reason. And I'd still find you silly. But I'd be hard pressed to prove to you they didn't exist now wouldn't I?
 

Mycroft

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I used the word fair for a reason. And I'd still find you silly. But I'd be hard pressed to prove to you they didn't exist now wouldn't I?

It would be fair to believe a thing exists if the evidence in favor of its existence was more or less equal to the evidence against.
 

Moiety

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It would be fair to believe a thing exists if the evidence in favor of its existence was more or less equal to the evidence against.

Yes, but between believing and not believing, in a very arbitrarily defined concept (let's not forget there are many definitions of God), there is a whole spectrum of sentiments. I choose to think that there is no good-enough explanations for the "God exists" proposition on either side, to be argued for or against.
 

ajblaise

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Yes, but between believing and not believing, in a very arbitrarily defined concept (let's not forget there are many definitions of God), there is a whole spectrum of sentiments. I choose to think that there is no good-enough explanations for the "God exists" proposition on either side, to be argued for or against.

I'd really like to hear a "God exists" theory that has more rational evidence and reasons supporting it than against it.
 
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