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  1. #81
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Anyway, statements are either true or false, but not both or neither. Assuming that truth is the goal, while theism and atheism might be true, agnosticism is never true, and therefore, is always the wrong choice.
    Agnosticism does not imply both or neither. The only conclusion that agnosticism states is that people do not and will not know whether there is or is not a God, which is true. There you have it. A contigent statement.

    It makes no conclusion to begin with about God actual existence. It makes no conclusion to be false. If anything, the only thing that agnosticism says about God is a tautology. It says that there either is or isn't a God.

    Again, the key point of agnosticism is not about whether there is or isn't a God, it is about the fact that regardless of God's actual existence, people will never know the answer.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #82
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    How can atheism be considered deep? By its very nature it's less than shallow, because it describes a lack of belief. If an ocean is deep, and a puddle is shallow then what is a desert?
    That's what I thought when I read that, but AJ (I think it was AJ) holds that people who "break the mold" of a predominantly religious society are inclined to be deep.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-13-2008 at 04:40 PM. Reason: better grammar
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #83
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Magic Poriferan,

    Is the statement 'there exists a God' true or false? A theist will say that it is true, and an atheist will say that it is false. If your goal is to answer this question correctly, then either theism or atheism is the right choice. Now is the statement 'it can be known that there exists a God' true or false? A theist could go either way, and so could an atheist. The agnostic will say that it is false.

    But how does an agnostic answer the first question, the original problem?

    Agnosticism is always wrong when answering the question 'does there exist a God?' because it doesn't answer the question at all, but instead answers the logically unrelated question 'can it be known that there exists a God?'.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #84
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Bayes would be most offended.
    I hope so.

    So, do you believe in aliens?
    Yes.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #85
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Magic Poriferan,

    Is the statement 'there exists a God' true or false? A theist will say that it is true, and an atheist will say that it is false. If your goal is to answer this question correctly, then either theism or atheism is the right choice.
    Then we have a complication right there. It is not my goal to answer that. I say that such a goal is impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Is the statement 'it can be known that there exists a God' true or false? A theist could go either way, and so could an atheist. The agnostic will say that it is false. But how does an agnostic answer the first question, the original problem?

    Agnosticism is always wrong when answering the question 'does there exist a God?' because it doesn't answer the question at all, but instead answers the logically unrelated question 'can it be known that there exists a God?'.
    This is all techinically correct, but is it relevent? The point of agnosticism is to not try answering the question, because all attempts to do so will be wasted effort.

    If in agnostic is right in his/her answer to the second question you posed, then the first question is not relevent.

    If someone says that there is a God, it necessarily follows that they might be right (let's be tidy, and just say it's a 50% chance). The more important point is, whether the person did or didn't get it right, is something that will never be known. Even if it could be know, what impact does it have to know that there is or isn't a God when we speak of God in such an abstract and cosmic sense? Does it make any difference?

    I'm coming from a point of pragmatism, essentially.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #86
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Magic Poriferan,

    Is the statement 'there exists a God' true or false? A theist will say that it is true, and an atheist will say that it is false. If your goal is to answer this question correctly, then either theism or atheism is the right choice. Now is the statement 'it can be known that there exists a God' true or false? A theist could go either way, and so could an atheist. The agnostic will say that it is false.

    But how does an agnostic answer the first question, the original problem?

    Agnosticism is always wrong when answering the question 'does there exist a God?' because it doesn't answer the question at all, but instead answers the logically unrelated question 'can it be known that there exists a God?'.
    This doesn't make sense. How can I be wrong if I don't answer your question at all? I might as well be silent.

    Lee: Does god exist?
    Edahn: [silent]
    Lee: WRONG!

  7. #87
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Agnosticism is always wrong when answering the question 'does there exist a God?' because it doesn't answer the question at all, but instead answers the logically unrelated question 'can it be known that there exists a God?'.
    so are you saying that it is better to be unreasonably certain than uncertain? or perhaps, that it is better to be unreasonably certain than to be certainly incorrect.


    i won't dispute that null is an inherently incorrect answer to a binary question, but that doesnt mean that it isnt the most intelligent answer.

    okay, so in answering this question with no proof, I can say yes (50% chance of being right), no (50% chance of being right), or neither (0% chance of being right since it is one of the two). however, the real mistake could be in the decisions that one would make based on the premise of whichever of the two possibly correct answers they choose. so in the grand scheme, we'd have to know what is at stake before attributing consequence to simply not answering.


    thiesm says everything, athiesm says nothing except possibly believing something that is not true. this brings up another question, should someone believe God exists simply because the potential advantage of being right outweigh the cost of being wrong? what other factors are there... time spent devoted to that purpose that could be spent elsewhere? is that accounted for in the positive emotional affects alone?

  8. #88
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    This doesn't make sense. How can I be wrong if I don't answer your question at all? I might as well be silent.

    Lee: Does god exist?
    Edahn: [silent]
    Lee: WRONG!
    Did he say that? I thought he said that one simply couldn't be right if they gave no answer, which is technically correct. But maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    so are you saying that it is better to be unreasonably certain than uncertain?
    That is an important question, one that I was wondering in regards to Didums. It surprises me that he seems to prefer someone that makes incorrect assertions when wrong over someone that decides to make no assertions when uncertain.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #89
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Yeah, see the last line of the quote.

  10. #90
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Yeah, see the last line of the quote.
    Oh my. You're right.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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