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  1. #141
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yes, but between believing and not believing, in a very arbitrarily defined concept (let's not forget there are many definitions of God), there is a whole spectrum of sentiments.
    The variety of arguments built upon a false premise is irrelevant. If your argument begins with "Flying pigs have difficulty landing, therefore...", it really doesn't matter where you go from there, however logical or well thought-out.

    I choose to think that there is no good-enough explanations for the "God exists" proposition on either side, to be argued for or against.
    Again, the fact that the existence of a thing cannot be disproven is no reason to believe that it exists. This is all theists have going in their favor - that their beliefs cannot be disproven. Meanwhile, science, built on the belief that a knowable universe exists and operates according to knowable principles, has provided ample evidence in favor of its accuracy.

    I prefer my beliefs to be built upon the foundation of evidence. However, if you're content with a worldview that forces you to shrug your shoulders and say, "I guess you have a point" to someone who tells you he believes in invisible hollow unicorns, all the more power to you, I suppose.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The variety of arguments built upon a false premise is irrelevant. If your argument begins with "Flying pigs have difficulty landing, therefore...", it really doesn't matter where you go from there, however logical or well thought-out.
    You're assuming it's false. That there isn't an god entity in this universe. You can call it a false premise if you don't prove it's false.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Again, the fact that the existence of a thing cannot be disproven is no reason to believe that it exists. This is all theists have going in their favor - that their beliefs cannot be disproven. Meanwhile, science, built on the belief that a knowable universe exists and operates according to knowable principles, has provided ample evidence in favor of its accuracy.

    I prefer my beliefs to be built upon the foundation of evidence. However, if you're content with a worldview that forces you to shrug your shoulders and say, "I guess you have a point" to someone who tells you he believes in invisible hollow unicorns, all the more power to you, I suppose.
    Are you deliberately missing my point or what? I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in the Christian, Islamic or any other religious view I came across. I simply don't dismiss the possibility of our universe having a creative force behind it. I believe in science and evidence too. I don't believe in invisible hollow unicorns, but the fact remains I can't prove they don't exist. That is a given. That doesn't mean I don't find people who do believe in such things, silly like I pointed out. So as far as shrugging my shoulders is concerned, what would you have me do? Who am I to judge the happiness of someone who truly believes such beings exists? I can tell them they don't exist as many times as I want, but for what?



    What if 1000 years ago, someone actually believed in something akin to the Big Bang? Wouldn't that person be considered silly? Yes. Could he prove it? No. Is it any less true because of that? Apparently not.

  3. #143
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You're assuming it's false. That there isn't an god entity in this universe. You can call it a false premise if you don't prove it's false.





    Are you deliberately missing my point or what? I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in the Christian, Islamic or any other religious view I came across. I simply don't dismiss the possibility of our universe having a creative force behind it. I believe in science and evidence too. I don't believe in invisible hollow unicorns, but the fact remains I can't prove they don't exist. That is a given. That doesn't mean I don't find people who do believe in such things, silly like I pointed out. So as far as shrugging my shoulders is concerned, what would you have me do? Who am I to judge the happiness of someone who truly believes such beings exists? I can tell them they don't exist as many times as I want, but for what?



    What if 1000 years ago, someone actually believed in something akin to the Big Bang? Wouldn't that person be considered silly? Yes. Could he prove it? No. Is it any less true because of that? Apparently not.

    whether you like it or not, you've already made a decision. By not actively being a believer, you've entered the realm of "lack of belief". Which is exactly what most reasonable atheists maintain. Dawkins, dennet, harris etc... none would claim 100% belief in the idea that there is no god. Any sane atheist is in reality, an "agnostic" in the same almost anal retentive way you are trying to beat this horse with. The difference, is that most of these sane agnostics realize that 95% sure "there is no god", while not 100%, is good enough. De facto atheist is what most atheists truly qualify as.

    atheism is a lack of belief. antitheism would be the actual anti to theism. By not believing in anything, you are practically a de facto atheist whether you like it or not.

  4. #144
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    And modern chatolicism is so boring.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #145
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    nice try bill oriely ... just because I lack a belief in God or wicca does not mean Im going to be like stalin if im in power. im sure you've heard of secular humanism.
    hehe point noted. so this thread is about you now ?

  6. #146
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Vince, relax please.

    Victor's posts need not be interpreted as clear-cut statements. He does not seek to deliver a message, he just seeks to evoke an emotional reaction from others. He has not commitment to factual accuracy or logical consistency, as his claims stand, they are strictly non-sense. But nonetheless may be an interesting outlet for our imagination.
    *takes chill pill*
    thanks. I'll keep that in mind

  7. #147
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Anyway, as you'll discover if you do read one of his books, he is very much in awe at the greatness of the universe and its workings. He's a very passionate individual. (Although it should be noted that the passion with which an argument is presented has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is accurate or true.)
    mkay, note to self : definitely need to read Dawkins' book(s).

  8. #148
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    whether you like it or not, you've already made a decision. By not actively being a believer, you've entered the realm of "lack of belief". Which is exactly what most reasonable atheists maintain. Dawkins, dennet, harris etc... none would claim 100% belief in the idea that there is no god. Any sane atheist is in reality, an "agnostic" in the same almost anal retentive way you are trying to beat this horse with. The difference, is that most of these sane agnostics realize that 95% sure "there is no god", while not 100%, is good enough. De facto atheist is what most atheists truly qualify as.

    atheism is a lack of belief. antitheism would be the actual anti to theism. By not believing in anything, you are practically a de facto atheist whether you like it or not.
    I would never say something like "there is no god", though. Not unless we are talking about a very specific one. And even then, I'm not sure. Don't make it so clean-cut, specially when you are talking about someone else's opinion. Unless you want to make this about semantics. Quite okay with that. In fact I started posting in this thread by asking if we were simply talking about atheism or atheism and agnosticism.

  9. #149
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You're assuming it's false. That there isn't an god entity in this universe. You can (sic) call it a false premise if you don't prove it's false.
    I responded to your insinuation that this "spectrum of sentiments" in some shape or fashion means anything. A "spectrum of sentiments" built upon the foundation of a premise that is demonstrably mistaken to the extent that anything can ever be demonstrably mistaken (a pretty good extent!) is no the more deserving of consideration for its diversity.

    The notion that nothing can be discarded as false if it cannot be proven to be false to a degree of 100% absolute and utter certainty is at odds with science.

    Are you deliberately missing my point or what? I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in the Christian, Islamic or any other religious view I came across. I simply don't dismiss the possibility of our universe having a creative force behind it.
    As Babylon Candle pointed out, even an atheist will not claim that there is absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever that a divine being exists - simply that it is equally as unlikely as invisible hollow unicorns.

    I believe in science and evidence too.
    I think the grammatically tortuous "I don't not believe in science and evidence" would be more accurate to your fundamentally evasive worldview.

    I don't believe in invisible hollow unicorns, but the fact remains I can't prove they don't exist. That is a given. That doesn't mean I don't find people who do believe in such things, silly like I pointed out. So as far as shrugging my shoulders is concerned, what would you have me do? Who am I to judge the happiness of someone who truly believes such beings exists? I can tell them they don't exist as many times as I want, but for what?
    Then I am curious: do you consider the existence of a deity equally as unlikely as the existence of invisible hollow unicorns?

    What if 1000 years ago, someone actually believed in something akin to the Big Bang? Wouldn't that person be considered silly? Yes. Could he prove it? No. Is it any less true because of that? Apparently not.
    This is a striking example of the advances made by reason and science, which I would think would be at odds with your implied argument that, ultimately, science is just another "viewpoint" which commands no more respect than religion.

  10. #150
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    As Babylon Candle pointed out, even an atheist will not claim that there is absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever that a divine being exists - simply that it is equally as unlikely as invisible hollow unicorns.
    An atheist need merely think that a god does not exist. How likely he thinks it is that a god exists compared to the likelihood that an invisible unicron exists is irrelevent.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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