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  1. #121
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    I wasn't disputing atheism, but nihilism and you know it.
    Have you ever seen Hawkins in interview or read one of his books? That is not a man who believes in nothing.

  2. #122
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    I wasn't disputing atheism, but nihilism and you know it.
    How was nihilism relevant to your comment?

    Explain further how Dawkins is nihilistic. So far you only stated he seems to pay little regard to the 'subjective experience'.

    It is clear that he pays little regard to religious 'subjective experience', though it is not clear that he regards all 'subjective experiences' as unimportant. Does Dawkins think that aesthetical judgments for example are unimportant?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #123
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    Seems awfully nihilist and oblivious to me.
    Nihilist, maybe, depends on your opinion. Not sure how it's oblivious. God and religion are fake. Okay, tell me what that has changed in your day to day life? What is it being oblivious of?

    One can also debate wether you could call our world, surroundings, whatever..."extraordinary" or "beautiful" in its complexity and in certain aspects. From an objective or scientific stance you could definitely say it isn't.
    There are certainly lots of things that are extraordinary and beautiful. I am in awe of scenery and things quite often. How does this relate to atheism? Okay, instead of being in awe of what "god" has created, you're now in awe of what has resulted from the natural processes of the planet. What's the big deal about that?
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Therefore God exists!
    It's nice to know you've finally found God BW.

  5. #125
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The fact is that the father of MBTI was Carl Jung.

    Jung was a fascist who freely and voluntarily supported the National Socialists.

    Jung was a charismatic guru who tried to found his own religion, but only succeeded in founding a cult, of which MBTI is part.

    No qualified psychometrician uses MBTI. And no psychometrician would even dream of using any personality test in the manner MBTI is used here.

    MBTI is a form of soft fascism and anti-enlightenment.

    This is important today because the Islamo-fascists have declared war on us and the Enlightenment.

  6. #126
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The fact is that the father of MBTI was Carl Jung.

    Jung was a fascist who freely and voluntarily supported the National Socialists.

    Jung was a charismatic guru who tried to found his own religion, but only succeeded in founding a cult, of which MBTI is part.

    No qualified psychometrician uses MBTI. And no psychometrician would even dream of using any personality test in the manner MBTI is used here.

    MBTI is a form of soft fascism and anti-enlightenment.

    This is important today because the Islamo-fascists have declared war on us and the Enlightenment.
    what's also funny is that on Dawkin's scale of 1 to 7, he uses C. G. Jung as his example for 100% theists by quoting Jung:

    "I do not believe, I know." --C. G. Jung

    Im not sure that I agree with the idea that he desired for his own religion. I think he had roots in christianity and wanted to incorporate his psych beliefs into the church... Its only after their rejection that its been relegated to cult status... well I guess if you count corporate america consulting firms as cults.

    In a way, psychology is a "secular" religion. I believe that one day psychology will be entirely replaced by some combination of neuroscience, biochem and biophysics.

    We're all willing to accept this MBTI crap, even with its confirmation biases and non-falsefiables, because its fun and because MBTI doesnt require us to pray to an unknown deity as if we knew its every want and desire.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    "I do not believe, I know." --C. G. Jung
    Yes, there is the provisional truth and the Real Truth.

    They are both true. So how can we distinguish between them?

    The provisional truth is arrived at through the cognitive faculties. And the Real Truth is arrived at through the imagination.

    The imagination is a form of trance. And a trance consists of turning off some of the cognitive faculties and turning on the imaginative faculties.

    And over the millennia, trance has become very sophisticated. So we now have trances within trances - that is, while you are in a first trance, you induce a second trance within the first.

    And of course you can induce a third trance within the second. So you have a trance, within a trance, within a trance.

    By the time you get down to the fifth trance within the four trances above, some interesting things start to happen.

    You lose touch with whatever is above the first trance. And that is reality. So in the fifth trance you lose touch with reality. And the fifth trance itself takes on the character of reality. In other words, the fifth trance is completely and totally compelling.

    And it is at this moment that Revelation occurs.

    And as we all know Revelation is the Real Truth.

    So the Real Truth is closely related to the provisional truth - it is only separated by four layers of trance.

  8. #128
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Have you ever seen Hawkins in interview or read one of his books? That is not a man who believes in nothing.
    Who's Hawkins ? I thought this was about Dawkins..
    There are definitely scientists enough with strong moral values or who belief in things like progress, prosperity, personal happiness, etc etc... - Carl Sagan to name one. I'm not trying to deny that.

  9. #129
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    How was nihilism relevant to your comment?
    I literally used the word nihilistic. How much more explicit can I be ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Explain further how Dawkins is nihilistic. So far you only stated he seems to pay little regard to the 'subjective experience'.

    It is clear that he pays little regard to religious 'subjective experience', though it is not clear that he regards all 'subjective experiences' as unimportant. Does Dawkins think that aesthetical judgments for example are unimportant?
    Maybe not. I shall take a more in depth look at Dawkins.

    Anyway, disregard for aestethics and sorts, is very often the impression I get from "hardcore" atheists (maybe even the atheists with a dominant T like yourself). It's like there's no middle ground in the neverending debate between atheists on one side and (admittedly, utterly ridiculous) creationists on the other.
    My initial response related to the question "are we doomed for atheism without awe ?" which I think is a very wise question. I personally -NF alert- do not belief in cold reasoning in important ethical debates. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

  10. #130
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Okay, instead of being in awe of what "god" has created, you're now in awe of what has resulted from the natural processes of the planet. What's the big deal about that?
    Exactly. I have awe for the natural processes of this earth, be it chemical processes, a bunch of ants, Niagara falls, whatnot. I have respect for someone who relates this to god, from their perspective - fine by me. But nihilists are the types who don't see aesthetics at all.
    People in powerfull positions who lack this "awe" -wether contributed to god or nature- in day to day life are just as dangerous as religious people in power.

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