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  1. #1
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    Default religious nutbars

    these are two comments in response to this article
    Obama says religion has place in politics

    Ron Clark wrote on Jun 23, 2007 9:57 PM:
    " Obama has it wrong when he says that the right hijacked faith. The right is where Christians have always been it is the left that walked away from faith and what is right when they allowed divorce, abortion on demand,and have protected premarital copulation and unwed mothers. Promotes the use of drugs and alcohol. And now wants to legalize marriage between people of the same gender. Next will be marriage between multiple partners or even animals. Tolerance can only go so far and we here some in the west and east talking in terms of understanding pedophilia and bestiality as a life style. Now the faithful have hijacked nothing they are just circling the wagons. "

    Leonard wrote on Jun 23, 2007 6:21 PM:
    " He claims to be a Christian and taught Constitutional Law at a law school, but he is a lightweight and a populist. His interpretation of the Bible and the Constitution are for convenience only. One principal remains paramount: Our Liberties are Derived from a Supreme Power . . . not Mao's personal moral creeds, Barack's personal history, or an Islamic sect . . . but the God our Founders were free to acknowledge . . . that of the Hebrews of Israel . . . of the Protestant Reformation. If we do not realize this, the United States will be stolen out from under us, and there will be no return or recourse. "

    Did I miss something?????
    "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
    From the The Treaty of Tripoli
    Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.


    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

    -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

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  2. #2
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    I'm going to derail this immediately and ask you a question. Why are you fascinated by the American religion/politics mash-up?

    I think it's interesting myself--and something to be closely watched--but then, I live in the States.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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  3. #3
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I'm going to derail this immediately and ask you a question. Why are you fascinated by the American religion/politics mash-up?

    I think it's interesting myself--and something to be closely watched--but then, I live in the States.
    There's a pentecostal church in my home town and they see the right wing properganda and are quite delighted by it. I'm concerned they might get inspired. Actually it was quite shocking to chat to someone who honestly believe it was a good idea, for "The Church" (meaning their Church) to run the country. Up until that point I could rattle of the mantra "only in america"

    Unfortunately Australia tends to follow American trends.

    We also had a brief Intelligent Design debate but it got turfed pretty quickly.

    On top of all this, if America becomes a Theocracy it will affect me/ the planet.

    Atheist make up a far whack of the scientific community in America and I doubt they're going to continue to work there if it becomes a Christian state. The brain drain alone will cause America to lose it's tech edge over everyone else.
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

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    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post

    Ron Clark wrote on Jun 23, 2007 9:57 PM:

    Obama has it wrong when he says that the right hijacked faith.
    {slippery slope approach, beware!}
    __The right is where Christians have always been
    ____it is the left that walked away from faith and what is right
    _______when they allowed divorce, abortion on demand,and have protected premarital copulation and unwed mothers.
    ___________Promotes the use of drugs and alcohol.
    ______________And now wants to legalize marriage between people of the same gender.
    ___________________Next will be marriage between multiple partners or even animals.
    _________________________Tolerance can only go so far and we here some in the west and east talking in terms of understanding pedophilia and bestiality as a life style.
    ______________________________ Now the faithful have hijacked nothing they are just c
    i
    r
    .c
    ...li............<-- falling off cliff, waaaaaaa!
    ......n
    ....g
    . t
    .h.
    ....e
    ..wagons. "
    I hate it when people talk like this. Sloppy generalizations, sloppy logic, slippery-slope scenarios, vilification of opposing viewpoints....

    "Ron Clark, This is (whack!) what you get (whack!) for screwing around (whack!) with American politics (whack whack whack)!

    "Now go home to your mother!!"


    " He claims to be a Christian and taught Constitutional Law at a law school, but he is a lightweight and a populist. His interpretation of the Bible and the Constitution are for convenience only. One principal remains paramount: Our Liberties are Derived from a Supreme Power . . . not Mao's personal moral creeds, Barack's personal history, or an Islamic sect . . . but the God our Founders were free to acknowledge . . . that of the Hebrews of Israel . . . of the Protestant Reformation. If we do not realize this, the United States will be stolen out from under us, and there will be no return or recourse. "
    I hate these things too.

    Let's look at what the Constitution actually says, not to whom the "founders" might have done lip service to. [Since Jefferson was deist, Franklin was agnostic/atheist, and so on...] Things change.

    If they want to live under Hebrew law, then they should be digging out the OT book of law and doing everything it says, starting from page one.

    Just sloppy moralizing on his part. But I know people like this... most of whom seem to live down in Crowsie's neck of the woods.

    "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
    From the The Treaty of Tripoli
    Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

    -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

    Well, to clarify, it looks like the "Separation of Church and State" was encoded in order to protect religion from political favoritism... but other than that... yes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member darlets's Avatar
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    I have nothing constructive to add other than

    :steam:

    grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

    I lied, that wasn't constructive
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
    Bertrand Russell

    http://rayofsolar.blogspot.com/
    http://zeropointseven.blogspot.com/

  6. #6
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    Atheist make up a far whack of the scientific community in America and I doubt they're going to continue to work there if it becomes a Christian state. The brain drain alone will cause America to lose it's tech edge over everyone else.
    They are hardly the source of our technical edge, which is rapidly disappearing because we keep exporting technology for free to the rest of the world. The fact is that academia only provides an extremely small percentage of the technology we're known for, and most of the rest of the country is religious to some extent. Religious people are not stupid, in spite of the stereotypes. It's better to maintain religion as it gives the crazy SJs and Es something to occupy themselves with while maintaining social order.

    The only reason we have any edge at all is that we're nowhere near as lazy as most of the rest of the world. BC was amazing, it makes our level of laid-back and passive look like a pressure-cooker, and we're a freakishly laid-back company as the US goes...
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sdalek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    ...It's better to maintain religion as it gives the crazy SJs and Es something to occupy themselves with...
    I'm calling this what it is, an inflammatory statement.

    I, myself, have not use for the religious fundamentalism and fanaticism which leads to American religious fascists seeking political power to force their own form of Clerical Fascism on an unsuspecting populace. Frankly, my mother and I were shocked by the rampant religious fanaticism we watched on TV every Sunday when we first moved to the states in the 70's. To us, it was unimaginable, inappropriate, fanatic, and questionable social worth. Unfortunately we had no choice but to settle in the south and could not relocate away from there or it.

    And, while you probably think that you are evoking Marx's "Religion is the opiate of the masses" idea, taken in context, it is...
    Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
    Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel
    I don't think that this is the sole province of "crazy SJs and Es". Back that statement with fact.

  8. #8
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    Unfortunately Australia tends to follow American trends.
    ...

    On top of all this, if America becomes a Theocracy it will affect me/ the planet.

    Atheist make up a far whack of the scientific community in America and I doubt they're going to continue to work there if it becomes a Christian state. The brain drain alone will cause America to lose it's tech edge over everyone else.
    Ah, okay. So, I guess my desire to move to Australia to escape this religious insanity is in-line with reality.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    Atheist make up a far whack of the scientific community in America and I doubt they're going to continue to work there if it becomes a Christian state. The brain drain alone will cause America to lose it's tech edge over everyone else.
    BTW, do you have any actual data (or conditions of the data) for this? It's a very generalized supposition and I was wondering where you got it from.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdalek View Post
    I'm calling this what it is, an inflammatory statement.
    [insult removed]

    I, myself, have not use for the religious fundamentalism and fanaticism which leads to American religious fascists seeking political power to force their own form of Clerical Fascism on an unsuspecting populace. Frankly, my mother and I were shocked by the rampant religious fanaticism we watched on TV every Sunday when we first moved to the states in the 70's. To us, it was unimaginable, inappropriate, fanatic, and questionable social worth. Unfortunately we had no choice but to settle in the south and could not relocate away from there or it.
    So, where did you come from to get all the benefits of the US while hating our culture?

    I don't think that this is the sole province of "crazy SJs and Es". Back that statement with fact.
    Nah, there are a lot of us religious nutbars out here. Even I'm a religious nutbar, but hell if I care for organized religion and weekly (or more often) meetings to deal with all those damned Es and SJs hypocrytically judging how you live your life. Beside hating to dealing with groups, being an Introvert and an NT, I'm perpetually an outsider, and as such, there really is no value in the whole meeting thing for me, which is why I don't do it and distance myself.

    The fact is that if we start legislating away religion or otherwise saying things disagreed with are okay, the SJs might lose faith or maybe even revolt, then you will have a theocracy, and I expect you'll be one of the first up against the wall or burning at the stake if that happens. I highly recommend people accept things as they are, especially the vocal minority, since they are still dramatically outnumbered, even if they live in a little microcosm and have myopia so they can imagine the world different from reality.
    Last edited by Ivy; 06-29-2007 at 09:22 AM. Reason: removed personal insult
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

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