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The Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of (strong) Atheism

Amargith

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"Altar of Science"? What is that?

A place where Science can do no wrong and everything that hasnt been approved by it yet does not exist and is worthy of mocking, dismissing and outright banning. It also leaves a stain on your immortal iq and social reputation and is on par with the 7 sins, though any mention of that would get you shocked pearl clutching and outright rage along with at least 10 obligatory eyerolls..

I was raised in the fundamentalist strain :)
 

Coriolis

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A place where Science can do no wrong and everything that hasnt been approved by it yet does not exist and is worthy of mocking, dismissing and outright banning. It also leaves a stain on your immortal iq and social reputation and is on par with the 7 sins, though any mention of that would get you shocked pearl clutching and outright rage along with at least 10 obligatory eyerolls..

I was raised in the fundamentalist strain :)
I was not, but rather joined it as a young adult, physics being the most fundamental science. My experience has been quite different from what you describe. The laws of physics bend to no one's free will, and it is we who must respect and work within them, which requires that we first understand them. I have yet to meet an actual scientist who worships science, though I know many who follow a religious faith or spiritual path, myself included.
 

Amargith

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I was not, but rather joined it as a young adult, physics being the most fundamental science. My experience has been quite different from what you describe. The laws of physics bend to no one's free will, and it is we who must respect and work within them, which requires that we first understand them. I have yet to meet an actual scientist who worships science, though I know many who follow a religious faith or spiritual path, myself included.

You re right, but some make a sport/religion out of misinterpreting and twisting scientific fact and presenting it as dogma. And for that matter, imbueing science with an almost divine power, i.e it can do no wrong and everything we have discovered so far is absolute truth, instead of treating it as the valuable tool it is in the discovery of the universe. A tool that often does get realligned and finetuned, as it should and hasnt processed the entire universe yet. For some, the words ‘we dont know yet’ are mighty fucking hard to think, let alone utter.

That is what im talking about. Its why i capitalized the S and called it worship. The indoctration that comes with is very real.

Any system, be it spiritual or material can be perverted that way.
 

Fluffywolf

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Two cents on my father:

When I think about my father from the perspective of my childhood. I can only remember him for the doer he is. That, despite being told of being dumb in school because of his dyslexia in the 60's, he built a good company and based on integrity and honest values. I remember him in my childhood as a hard and proud worker that always has a smile on his face. I remember him as being fair, consistent and basicly amazing.

Of course once I grew up and started to see his sometimes highly irrational ideas for what they actually are and realize the totally ineffecient methods on how things should be done according to him, and still working with him to this day, I disagree more with him than I do with anyone in my life. Despite that we seem to have a fine relationship though.



As for my atheism:

Probably the moment I realized I was an atheist was in elementary school when I asked something about the noah's ark story and got told to go outside of the classroom for disrupting the class. Before that I don't think I ever doubted anyone telling me that everything the bible says is true, but in that moment I suddenly started questioning it and felt people were trying to fool me. I didn't have the capacity to understand my way of thinking at the time, but I remember I felt extremely worried whenever I was thinking about the subject of religion. I could not reconcile my own feelings on the subject and the more I thought about it, the more I felt alienated from the(my) concept of religion. I felt like something about religion was wrong, but also that thinking that in itself was apparantly wrong. I mean, I was specifically told by a teacher that my questions were bad. I was thinking about things that were wrong to think about and got told as much, but as a 8-10 (somewhere about) year old I couldn't figure out how to 'unthink' the things I thought either.

As far as I knew at the time, my parents were christian and so was everyone around me. I had questions about religion that people apparantly shunned and didn't want to answer and so I remember keeping it all to myself, feeling quite miserable about the whole situation.

Not many years later I realized my parents identified as agnostic, atheism wasn't the end of the world and didn't mean I was a broken human being and that the fault didn't lie with me but with my teacher and everything turned out to be fine.

Anyway my atheism definately did not stem from my father. My atheism essentially stemmed from the realization that theism is a baseless belief and I am incapable of internally justifying a baseless belief. Me being atheist isn't a choice for me. I can't belive in any of the religions gods as much as I can't believe the toothfairy is real. There is no distinction of classification between any of those to me. Wether it be god, allah, buddha, odin or zeus.


If I believed in god before that moment, then I only believed in him for lack of thought. Once I started to think about it, faith had already become an impossibility for me.
 

Yuurei

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My Father is quite defective and I am only kind of an Athiest.

I am more Buddhist than anything- in belief but not so much practice. Animals are too tasty, and people too exasperating.

As I tell the Mormon’s when show up often “ The world is a chaotic place where things just happe. I’m fine with that, I do not need the comfort of a God.”

I suppose a bored psychologist could connect this to growing up without a reliable support structure-a d a small part of it may be- but I’m am adult now, I do not need my parents Anymore.
 

Agent Washington

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Anyway, my dad is a good man.

... The thing is, my dad did a LOT of things for me. Can't say the same for God. I'm agnostic/pantheist. But I literally do not give a shit about the monotheist athropomorphic variation.

Funny story, he's a Christian. :shrug:
 

LucieCat

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My dad and I have a positive relationship. I was briefly raised Catholic then raised Evangelical with varying degrees of conservativeness (my parents are not really conservative Christians but a huge chunk of the people I grew up surrounded by are). While I'm technically a Christian, I really don't speak about it publically nor do I attend church regularly and haven't for a long time. But I don't think the fact that I have maintained my faith (in what I choose, I am not a biblical literalist and I believe we cannot definitively ever fathom religion and God completely) is related to my dad.

Although, my attitude towards religion may partially stem from my parents'. We've always seemed to end up around people who are way more hardcore about faith, notice some form of hypocrisy, and disassociate ourselves as quick as possible. I think my parents may be (though ive never asked) in the same boat as me regarding religion.

I also had a year of very conservative Christian education, which also sort of turned me off. It was mainly a combination of Jesus in non-Jesus related things (like this is math class, we need to focus on math), things that made no sense (the earth being 6,000 years old, denying scientific theories without having reasons why they couldn't comply with the Bible, no critical thinking skills encouraged (which I realized in hindsight), and I felt that I couldn't speak my mind. Have you ever felt the wrath of a bunch of angry Evangelicals? I haven't, but it looks scary. I've also felt the wrath of angry Catholics (my extended family), and I frankly don't know which is worse. And for some reason I can never call anyone down (or use logic). I started to realize, "Wait , people actually think this? They're just not my parents who shrug it off and don't pay attention?"

I honestly think an education like that could turn someone into an atheist, probably moreso than a parent. Especially if they were exposed to it for a long time. That, or they will become essentially fully emersed in that interpretation.

Although, I still have one friend from back then and she is (as far as I can tell) a genuine believer in that particular strand of Christianity. Religion is important to her and it's helped her through hard times in her life. Interestingly, her dad was absent throughout a big chunk of her adolescence. He passed away when she was 16, and really had not been a very strong figure in her life due to his problems with drug addiction and depression for several years prior. If anything, I think that solidified her beliefs. Although, she and her dad were very close before all of the problems started. I'm not exactly sure how this has impacted her younger sister whose about 3/4 years younger. But her sister strikes me as someone more along the lines of my beliefs.

My parents are another interesting example. Neither had positive relationships with their parents. I do believe their parents cared for them genuinely, but were just too messed up to be positive influences in their childrens' lives. My dad was raised Catholic though I'm not really sure what my mom's religious upbringing was (from what I can tell, her family were not regular church goers). My mom became Catholic sometime in her late teens and she graduated from a Catholic University. She distanced herself from Catholicism and conservative Evangelicalism before my dad did. Her Dad fits the definition of absent/weak more than my paternal grandfather. Although he was present, he was just depressed, unemployed (not that there were very many good paying jobs available anyway, and smoked himself to death (my mom was in her early 30s when he passed though). I might sound a bit harsh on the man, but I never met him so maybe that's why.

In the end, it's different for everyone.
 
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It isn't gnosticism. It's the psycho-spiritual roots of what came to be the teachings of Gurdjieff, of which came to be the modern Enneagram, which provides us with hours of fun, typing our favourite celebrities.

Gotcha. Gurdjieff is referenced many times in Inner Christianity. The rest of that enneagram/personality stuff doesn't interest me, however.
 

Red Memories

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While I think family issues like this can sometimes cause a lack of faith for people, other times people turn to God. Ultimately it depends the person.
But this should not be used to degrade people who believe in God. heh.
I am a Christian and grew up without a father.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Conclusion drawn from this thread: all atheists are apparently autistic nutjobs whose daddies didn't rock them on their knees enough. A lot of presuppositions and circular reasoning in the OP's assumptions and arguments. I'm not even sure where to begin.
 
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Conclusion drawn from this thread: all atheists are apparently autistic nutjobs whose daddies didn't rock them on their knees enough. A lot of presuppositions and circular reasoning in the OP's assumptions. I'm not even sure where to begin.

Not necessarily. I admit I was wrong on some things.

Correction and redirection. Later man.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I am not denying the need and importance of a strong father figure, or in the very least, some form of positive masculine role model, even if that might be an unconventional arrangement with a butch lesbian who works on motorcycles :laugh: and I would agree to an extent with the tradcons who say the rise in single mother households has had a detrimental effect on society.

I'm just having difficulty seeing the connection between lack of said role model and predilection for atheist worldviews. I think one's tendency toward agnosticism/atheism is going to have a lot more to do with personality/temperament (not necessarily strictly in the Jungian/Keirseyan sense) than with the presence of or lack of a strong and positive masculine/father-like figure. Of course I can no more prove that assumption than you can yours, so it is what it is, take it with a grain of salt.
 
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I am not denying the need and importance of a strong father figure, or in the very least, some form of positive masculine role model, even if that might be an unconventional arrangement with a butch lesbian who works on motorcycles :laugh: and I would agree to an extent with the tradcons who say the rise in single mother households has had a detrimental effect on society.

I'm just having difficulty seeing the connection between lack of said role model and predilection for atheist worldviews. I think one's tendency toward agnosticism/atheism is going to have a lot more to do with personality/temperament (not necessarily strictly in the Jungian/Keirseyan sense) than with the presence of or lack of a strong and positive masculine/father-like figure. Of course I can no more prove that assumption than you can yours, so it is what it is, take it with a grain of salt.

 

Poki

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I am aethiest, i had a strong father, always present, etc. Both parents are christians

Why am i an aethiest...no proof that he does exist and its impossible to prove what doesnt exist in that manner. When i die i will find out. Its simple logic combined with lack of a need to actual make a decision.

With that being said, i agree with alot of the morals of whats in the bible about Jesus...i dont really align with "religion". To try to be good is different then worshipping good. I have no issues trying to be like jesus is represented, i have issues with being like religion is represented. :shrug: at the ejd of the day, i really could careless, i will be the person i want to be and do what i believe is the right thing. I still dont really believe in God...but still...i cant say its a fake because again...you cant prove what doesnt exist, just say that its not ever been found. Its a form of accuracy i live life by.
 
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In Faith of the Fatherless, Vitz introduces his hypothesis then marshals his evidence. In the first chapter, “Intense Atheism,” Vitz explains the psychological issues that he thinks underlie intense atheism. He discusses projection theory, the Oedipus complex, and attachment insecurity as elements that contribute to his defective father hypothesis. Vitz doesn’t claim that his hypothesis applies in every situation, but he does believe that the examples and evidence are so plentiful that it seems to be true in at least 50 percent of the cases.

Of course, family strife is not atheism’s only cause. And the experience of atheists does not prove that their arguments are wrong. However, if we wish to reach them personally, we must take psychological realities seriously and note that lack of fatherly love can leave deep scars, making trust in the heavenly Father much more difficult.

To his credit, Vitz rebuts Freud’s wholesale pathologizing of religion. He falls prey, however, to the opposite trap, pathologizing atheism, without ever showing that atheists are morally deficient, or that jails, for example, are disproportionately filled with them. Nonetheless he brings an energetic curiosity to bear on a stimulating topic. Is religious belief a product of our relations with our fathers? The answer: a resounding “maybe.”

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you.
 
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