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Revenge

Forever_Jung

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"An eye for an eye, and the whole world is blind."
-Gandhi

"They say the best revenge is living well. I say it's acid in the face--who will love them now?"

-Mindy Kaling


I've recently had (some) regret about how severely I carried out an act of social revenge. That being said, I generally look back upon my various small acts of vengeance with some satisfaction, as if the world was set right that day. Sometimes though, I get stuck in the revenge phase too long, and get consumed by my own venom.

How do you feel morally about revenge? Is it ever justified? Is it a matter of degrees and proportion, or is it just never okay?

How do you feel practically about revenge? Is it ever necessary? Can it ever be healing?

How do you feel experientially about revenge? Do you like it? If so, how do you go about getting it? Are you good at it?
 

Forever_Jung

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The best revenge is to not be like the one who did you harm. (or something like that)

-Marcus Aurelius

I don't see why that is so, or at least why you can't just take a classier form of revenge on them. As long as you get the necessary results, you needn't be as loathsome as they are. If someone attacks your family, you don't have to attack their family. But you should do something to ensure that person never messes with your loved ones again. From Machiavelli:

“People should either be caressed or crushed. If you do them minor damage they will get their revenge; but if you cripple them there is nothing they can do. If you need to injure someone, do it in such a way that you do not have to fear their vengeance.”
 
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I don't see why that is so, or at least why you can't just take a classier form of revenge on them.

If someone attacks your family, you don't have to attack their family. But you should do something to deter that person from ever messing with your loved ones again.

To use my own life as an example:

I was cheated on by a rabbit, and we subsequently got the divorce. During the separation, I focused my energies on myself instead of thoughts of revenge. As a result, I ended up in a better position than she is currently in. My divorce was tipped overwhelmingly in my favor. Now, I am in a relationship with a wolf like myself.

The best revenge is to be unlike the one who performed the injustice. - philosiblog
 

Forever_Jung

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To use my own life as an example:

I was cheated on by a rabbit, and we subsequently got the divorce. During the separation, I focused my energies on myself instead of thoughts of revenge. As a result, I ended up in a better position than she is currently in. My divorce was tipped overwhelmingly in my favor. Now, I am in a relationship with a wolf like me.

The best revenge is to be unlike the one who performed the injustice. - philosiblog

That makes sense in that situation for sure. But I don't think it always does. To me that scenario says something more akin to: "the best revenge is doing whatever puts you and your interests in a better position than the other party. Even if that involves a counter-intuitive mindset towards the situation."

In my example, would focusing on myself and my family's well-being be good for us? Yes. But if the attacker from before starts to think they can attack us with impunity, it won't matter how much I focused on our well-being. At some point I have to disable/disarm this threat.

That doesn't mean becoming so consumed with avenging my family that I neglect the very family I am defending. It's just a practical way to solve a problem, that happens to feel delicious.
 
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[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION]

Why did you delete the Sansa/Ramsay example? That was a good example.

I'd say if you were dealing with a Ramsay Bolton, (vicious) revenge would surely be required. When faced with social pathology's similar to Ramsay, that rule of thumb doesn't compute.

When dealing with normies, it's probably better to just move on. Neglecting their existence is revenge itself.
 

Qlip

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In my experience I find revenge to be a way to engage your negative relationship to a person and bring it closer. It's a way of deepening an emotional entanglement. That doesn't mean that I think a person shouldn't 'punish' people or do things to make sure they keep their space as a functional action to make yourself or the world safer. It can be warranted depending on the circumstances, but that path does make an impression on the psyche.

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, that sounds like a lot of pain over a long time.
 

á´…eparted

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I have never really had to exact revenge IRL because I am careful of who I let into my circle to begin with, and people rarely attempt to cross me. That said, if I am going to revenge it will leave a huge crater and probably take innocent bystanders as well. Reason being is if I am brought to the point of wanting revenge, I will see those still around the troublesome individual as "complacent" and therefore worthy of being caught in the flak. The few times I have had to enact any sort of revenge I have no remorse or guilt at all.
 

Tennessee Jed

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[...snipped] How do you feel morally about revenge? Is it ever justified? Is it a matter of degrees and proportion, or is it just never okay?

How do you feel practically about revenge? Is it ever necessary? Can it ever be healing?

How do you feel experientially about revenge? Do you like it? If so, how do you go about getting it? Are you good at it?

If you still have reason to feel threatened by the other person, then definitely take appropriate measures to secure your safety. That's self-defense, not revenge.

But if you're secure from any further harm from that person and you are simply contemplating "getting even," then here is what the self-help books prescribe:

Revenge is usually a bad idea. Revenge can draw you into a cycle of retributions back and forth, basically keeping you in a relationship with someone who does you harm.

On the other hand, emotions don't recognize time. An old injury done to us by another person can upset us 20 years later as much as it did at the time. So it may not be enough simply to secure one's safety. There may be a need to do something to get past the old anger. After all, you don't want to be dwelling forever on old injuries.

The book "Boundaries: When To Say Yes, How To Say No To Take Control of Your Life" by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend (published 1992) talks about the need to practice forgiveness. That is, you "let it go" and free your head of the old injuries. Of course, forgiveness doesn't mean you let your guard down around that person. Forgiving isn't the same as reconciling. You can forgive someone and still keep your distance from them and distrust them, since they haven't repented or made amends. Forgiveness only requires one person; reconciliation requires two. You should forgive and move on in order to free your head, regardless of how you feel about the individual. (p. 256-7)

At the same time, the authors acknowledge that forgiveness can be tough. For example, the book emphasizes that it may be necessary to go through a grieving process in order to forgive properly. "To forgive means we will never get from that person what was owed us." (p. 268)

It also means giving up blame. When you have difficulty giving up blame, "it says that you can never be okay until someone else changes. This is the essence of powerless blame. It may make you morally superior to that person (in your own thinking, never in reality), but it will never fix the problem."

Okay, fine. What if you're currently in a relationship with someone and you're having trouble forgiving and forgetting petty injuries and insults from the kinds of petty clashes and head-butting two people routinely experience when together?

Basically the idea is to 1) Establish secure personal boundaries to head off repetitions of preventable injuries; and 2) Cleanse your head of resentment over old boundary violations and rip-offs by your partner in the past by practicing forgiveness. Do all this, and you can attain some kind of zen state of equanimity and detachment. From there, you can evaluate clear-headedly how your boundaries are working out and where to go next: Stay in a relationship with that person or dump them.

IOW, get rid of the old anger, set up boundaries to prevent new anger, and you'll be in a better state to evaluate and see whether the relationship is worth saving.

Disclaimer:

Again, I'm just quoting the self-help books here. Obviously this kind of one-size-fits-all advice won't work for everyone.
 

Forever_Jung

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In my experience I find revenge to be a way to engage your negative relationship to a person and bring it closer. It's a way of deepening an emotional entanglement...It can be warranted depending on the circumstances, but that path does make an impression on the psyche.

Yes, that's the drawback. Unpleasant though it may be, heated fighting is actually pretty intimate. And usually if someone has hurt you, you shouldn't be getting further entangled with them. In my experience, it definitely makes it hard to move on afterwards.



I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, that sounds like a lot of pain over a long time.

I never thought of it in those terms, but having you phrase it like that touches me. I think it's sort of trading one kind of pain for another. Getting even isn't enlightened, but it restores your sense of agency/control.

[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION]

Why did you delete the Sansa/Ramsay example? That was a good example.

I'd say if you were dealing with a Ramsay Bolton, (vicious) revenge would surely be required. When faced with social pathology's similar to Ramsay, that rule of thumb doesn't compute.

When dealing with normies, it's probably better to just move on. Neglecting their existence is revenge itself.

Sorry, I'm a fussy editor.

Anyway yes, it's pretty rare that a Ramsey comes into your life, so it may not be a situation that arises much. Most people don't deserve your attention. I will say for me though, I found Sansa's love life to be distressingly relatable.

I have never really had to exact revenge IRL because I am careful of who I let into my circle to begin with, and people rarely attempt to cross me. That said, if I am going to revenge it will leave a huge crater and probably take innocent bystanders as well. Reason being is if I am brought to the point of wanting revenge, I will see those still around the troublesome individual as "complacent" and therefore worthy of being caught in the flak. The few times I have had to enact any sort of revenge I have no remorse or guilt at all.

Haha I like your style! I know what you're saying about people nearby as being complicit in their complacence, though for practical reasons it would seem prudent to spare them (or at least save them for later). It's pretty hard to simultaneously dispatch multiple people, and the more people you merely maim with your vengeance, the more people you have coming for you afterwards.

Or do you just destroy EVERYONE???
 

Lark

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In my experience I find revenge to be a way to engage your negative relationship to a person and bring it closer. It's a way of deepening an emotional entanglement. That doesn't mean that I think a person shouldn't 'punish' people or do things to make sure they keep their space as a functional action to make yourself or the world safer. It can be warranted depending on the circumstances, but that path does make an impression on the psyche.

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, that sounds like a lot of pain over a long time.

That's a big thing, most of the better sources on forgiveness which I have read deal with avoiding precisely that through being unforgiving or becoming vindictive.

The people who I feel deserve to be on the receiving end of some divine retribution or wrath are also the sort of people I do not want to give a single minute over to thinking about if I can help it, in no small part because I know they would really, really relish being thought about regardless of the context, that doesnt mean that if an opportunity presented itself to exact revenge that I might do so but it wouldnt be likely to be a consequence of spending a lot of time obsessing about it, it would just be opportunistic.
 

ceecee

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All I can say is that I lean more towards the reckoning philosophy than revenge philosophy. I won't sacrifice either people I care about or people who aren't responsible if I can help it. In my experience with revenge, the reckoning came for the person, pretty much on its own. But I felt no regret in adding my own specific touches to that.
 
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The first question anyone needs to ask is whether revenge is worth it in the current context. Becoming bitterly vindictive over every little slight leads to a life of constant anger and a form of tunnel vision where you’ve narrowly defined your existence. Some things just aren’t worth the time. However there are those times when a wrong cannot and should not be ignored. Then you should strike. Don’t hastily retaliate. If you know the person well and have compiled enough information about them sifting through it meticulously should yield you a proper strategy. I don’t go out of my way to severely harm others and I expect the same in return. However if someone hurts me or those I care about than depending on the offense (something very serious not just insults) I can be downright ruthless. Which throws the offender off completely as I’m usually a very moral and trustworthy person. Their shock is the icing on the revenge cake.
 

Forever_Jung

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The first question anyone needs to ask is whether revenge is worth it in the current context. Becoming bitterly vindictive over every little slight leads to a life of constant anger and a form of tunnel vision where you’ve narrowly defined your existence. Some things just aren’t worth the time. However there are those times when a wrong cannot and should not be ignored. Then you should strike. Don’t hastily retaliate. If you know the person well and have compiled enough information about them sifting through it meticulously should yield you a proper strategy. I don’t go out of my way to severely harm others and I expect the same in return. However if someone hurts me or those I care about than depending on the offense (something very serious not just insults) I can be downright ruthless. Which throws the offender off completely as I’m usually a very moral and trustworthy person. Their shock is the icing on the revenge cake.

Yeah, I really enjoy how my mild/trustworthy image gives me the element of surprise when people mess with me or even challenge me in a friendly way. Shock icing is a good way to put it!

I will often act even more vulnerable/awkward/spacey than I already am at work, to ensure people take me lightly. It frees me from suspicion when I need to get the grimy political stuff done /phobic 6

All I can say is that I lean more towards the reckoning philosophy than revenge philosophy. I won't sacrifice either people I care about or people who aren't responsible if I can help it. In my experience with revenge, the reckoning came for the person, pretty much on its own. But I felt no regret in adding my own specific touches to that.

You always scare me a little, in a good way :D
 

á´…eparted

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Haha I like your style! I know what you're saying about people nearby as being complicit in their complacence, though for practical reasons it would seem prudent to spare them (or at least save them for later). It's pretty hard to simultaneously dispatch multiple people, and the more people you merely maim with your vengeance, the more people you have coming for you afterwards.

Or do you just destroy EVERYONE???

With some level of frequency I will experience more anger towards those who are supporting the one who I want revenge on, than the individual themselves.
 

StrawberryBoots

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Dec 29, 2016
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"An eye for an eye, and the whole world is blind."
-Gandhi

"They say the best revenge is living well. I say it's acid in the face--who will love them now?"

-Mindy Kaling


I've recently had (some) regret about how severely I carried out an act of social revenge. That being said, I generally look back upon my various small acts of vengeance with some satisfaction, as if the world was set right that day. Sometimes though, I get stuck in the revenge phase too long, and get consumed by my own venom.

How do you feel morally about revenge? Is it ever justified? Is it a matter of degrees and proportion, or is it just never okay?

How do you feel practically about revenge? Is it ever necessary? Can it ever be healing?

How do you feel experientially about revenge? Do you like it? If so, how do you go about getting it? Are you good at it?
I'm a fluffly little lamb with the face of a lion. My resolution is fixed, I'll never be my own avenger. My God mocks revenge and all the other powers of earth and hell by His Spirit, by His love, through His fluffly little lambs.

Physically and naturally, I look weak, but spiritually I'm strong. I stand in the authority and the name of Jesus.
 

Forever_Jung

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I'm a fluffly little lamb with the face of a lion. My resolution is fixed, I'll never be my own avenger. My God mocks revenge and all the other powers of earth and hell by His Spirit, by His love, through His fluffly little lambs.

Physically and naturally, I look weak, but spiritually I'm strong. I stand in the authority and the name of Jesus.

Noted.
 

Tilt

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I have gotten revenge on people and they didn't even see it coming. It's all about perception. The latest revenge is making myself look good in comparison to someone I truly dislike so the person in question just looks more and more ridiculous and has lost much respect in the eyes of the person she's trying to get it from. She did it to herself though.
 
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