In Praise of Failure

[anticlimatic]

How do you feel about failure as a concept, and how do you feel about experiencing it in your own lives?

In Praise of Failure - NYTimes.com

Myself, I have what might be considered a sick and masochistic obsession with it. I actively seek it out as often as I can- engaging in tasks or goals or practices that are insurmountable, failing quickly (often spectacularly), and then going back to the same practice for more and more and more...

Until eventually I learn enough or wear down the task enough to succeed, which contrary to the initial data of unlikely to impossible has proven time and time again to be the most likely and eventual outcome.

I feel like this is an area of life where the concept of faith steps in and trumps impact bias; when short term logic is beaten by long term logic through it.

I seldom consider anything a success until I have first failed at it several times, so I don't think it's the eventual success part that is important in the equation. I feel like the more I fail the better I am as a person, and I respect and appreciate the same in others.

Thoughts?

 

[❀༺♥༻ℭ𝔞𝔢𝔩𝔦𝔞_𝔄𝔦𝔰𝔩𝔦𝔫𝔤༺♥༻❀༺]

I think that failure is a necessary and important part of life. But even when aware of this, making mistakes can feel pretty awful. I think there's a natural part of the mind that wants to believe it can do everything right without mistakes. And accepting the falseness of that reality can be pretty disappointing. As a bit of perfectionist, I can be hard on myself or sell myself short. Failures felt like the end of everything.

But failure is such an important part of my life, of everyone's life. Mistakes are the portals of discovery. Failure gives us the chance to improve ourselves and grow. I think it also reminds us to remain humble, that we are humans not machines. And even machines malfunction every now and then. Perfection limits ideas, it rids us of change, progress, and improvement. But when you allow room for mistakes you notice an opportunity for change. You see something at a different angle. You get to try at something so many times and then when you finally get there, it means something. That amazing feeling goes away if we get rid of failure. I'm not saying we should strive for failure of course, but we should look at it as a way to discover and create, instead of as a limitation or shame.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

How do you feel about failure as a concept, and how do you feel about experiencing it in your own lives?

In Praise of Failure - NYTimes.com

Myself, I have what might be considered a sick and masochistic obsession with it. I actively seek it out as often as I can- engaging in tasks or goals or practices that are insurmountable, failing quickly (often spectacularly), and then going back to the same practice for more and more and more...

Until eventually I learn enough or wear down the task enough to succeed, which contrary to the initial data of unlikely to impossible has proven time and time again to be the most likely and eventual outcome.

I feel like this is an area of life where the concept of faith steps in and trumps impact bias; when short term logic is beaten by long term logic through it.

I seldom consider anything a success until I have first failed at it several times, so I don't think it's the eventual success part that is important in the equation. I feel like the more I fail the better I am as a person, and I respect and appreciate the same in others.

Thoughts?

Oh I get it. This is your approach socially.

 

[anticlimatic]

Oh I get it. This is your approach socially.

Why Ed Baily, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness. Are we cross...?

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Why Ed Baily, what an ugly thing to say. I abhor ugliness. Are we cross...?

No you don't.

 

[á´…eparted]

The author likely doesn't have much experience in science because failure will never go away there. I'd argue failure in science has gone up - and will continue to go up - the more advanced we get. The problems we get become more and more complex, require more and more precision, and in some cases we might be closing in on a ceiling until we find a new paradigm. The most salient example is the need to jump to quantum computing as the transistor has little room left to be optimized.

There is a nice comic I saw years ago that illustrates what science is like. The public doesn't see the failures that scientists see. Why? Because it's distracting, and unless you're in the field you won't understand it. The raw results and experiments have to be parsed down and explained by the experimenter. Throwing every single thing out there dumping a stack of cards on the floor, as opposed to stacking them as they need to be beforehand. The point is though, failure in science will always be there, and indeed this is a good thing. Scientists get VERY suspicious when things work too well. In the end, it is immensely frustrating at how little the public understands how science works, and even more how distrustful they are over science. The article sort of illustrates that. But I digress, as that is another topic.

The writer offers caution to an impossible scenario though. Humanity will never perfect itself. There is too much complexity, and I do not believe there is a solution. We should strive for it, but never expect to actually get there. The fear of it is very unfounded. I think it's much more likely we'll discover another form of consciousness (likely by our design) that can self-propogate, and we will become obsolete and or tread water, just being an island in another higher order emergent property. Far before any sort of idealized society forms.

Honestly though, I really don't like this article. It feels like it's telling that we suck, without really offering any solution, or hope, other than saying "yeah everything is shitty and it's good to reminds ourselves that it is shitty". This is personal but I REALLY resent anyone telling that kind of crap to me, because I already face that sort of thing every day. Existing sucks, and I am doing my best to make it into something worthwhile. I'm very aware of my own mortality and the implications around it. I don't need to be reminded of it. Luckily that almost never happens in the day to day. It feels like he's got an axe to grind overall and it makes my skin crawl.

 

[anticlimatic]

No you don't.

Saying I'm a liar. Does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Ed...if I didn't think you were my friend, I just don't think I could bear it.

 

[anticlimatic]

The author likely doesn't have much experience in science because failure will never go away there. I'd argue failure in science has gone up - and will continue to go up - the more advanced we get. The problems we get become more and more complex, require more and more precision, and in some cases we might be closing in on a ceiling until we find a new paradigm. The most salient example is the need to jump to quantum computing as the transistor has little room left to be optimized. There is a nice comic I saw years ago that illustrates what science is like. The public doesn't see the failures that scientists see. Why? Because it's distracting, and unless you're in the field you won't understand it. The raw results and experiments have to be parsed down and explained by the experimenter. Throwing every single thing out there dumping a stack of cards on the floor, as opposed to stacking them as they need to be beforehand. The point is though, failure in science will always be there, and indeed this is a good thing. Scientists get VERY suspicious when things work too well. In the end, it is immensely frustrating at how little the public understands how science works, and even more how distrustful they are over science. The article sort of illustrates that. But I digress, as that is another topic. The writer offers caution to an impossible scenario though. Humanity will never perfect itself. There is too much complexity, and I do not believe there is a solution. We should strive for it, but never expect to actually get there. The fear of it is very unfounded. I think it's much more likely we'll discover another form of consciousness (likely by our design) that can self-propogate, and we will become obsolete and or tread water, just being an island in another higher order emergent property. Far before any sort of idealized society forms. Honestly though, I really don't like this article. It feels like it's telling that we suck, without really offering any solution, or hope, other than saying "yeah everything is shitty and it's good to reminds ourselves that it is shitty". This is personal but I REALLY resent anyone telling that kind of crap to me, because I already face that sort of thing every day. Existing sucks, and I am doing my best to make it into something worthwhile. I'm very aware of my own mortality and the implications around it. I don't need to be reminded of it. Luckily that almost never happens in the day to day. It feels like he's got an axe to grind overall and it makes my skin crawl.

Well it's more of a philosophy article than a science article, but honestly it was a quick google search afterthought for the filler purposes of giving people something to read. I was mostly curious how people personally see failure, as I have a pet theory on the issue. Given the demographics of this forum I predicted either mostly crickets or responses like yours- that the idea of failure, or any aspect of life that isn't perpetuallly reassuring you that you're a perfect beautiful snowflake, "makes your skin crawl."

 

[Dreamer]

This is a fairly complex question, or, I'm seeing it from a million different perspectives right now at least so the complexity comes from trying to explain my viewpoint haha. But I'll stick with one quick thought of mine regarding failure in my life and how I deal with it or understand it.

Before starting any project, task, or longer term goal, there is of course, a vision of how I see it in the end. Not just its completion set to some standard I give to myself, but how my life will be once that set goal is complete. Even the smallest of tasks alters life slightly, so I don't think of it as crossing something off my to-do list and patting myself on the back, but with each step I take, and each goal I accomplish, or don't, will affect my life. I'll state though, that this isn't a conscious thought process of mine, but something I understand upon reflection.

Setting failure, or success up within this framework, I'm then left questioning not what failure does to me, but how my life "could've" been, had I accomplished this, this, or that. The difference being, I see the former as shorter term disappointment, and the latter, longer term in its affects. I believe it's when I absorb myself with the short term for too long, when it actually comes to be unhealthy for me, as all these unchecked boxes in my to-do list just keep compiling and stare at me in my face and I start spriling down into one of my insecurities of being "just a dreamer" (boy, that phrase was drilled hard into my growing up haha!)

If I keep my sights on the long term affects though, it's less strict and offers more leeway for myself. Not like I'm giving myself a pass or not holding myself accountable for not following through, but I recognize that one can never predict the outcomes in life. One can get close, but there will always be those outliers that debunk your personal theories. I also understand that there will always be factors in the equation where you simply cannot control, and that bit is up to the determination of life. So, you throw that perspective, of thinking of these what-if scenarios had you done this or that, into an understanding that life is as it is and will do as it does, then, at least for me, those what-ifs aren't as depressing as one may assume, because really, the thought of someone pondering all day long how much better one's life could've been...seems ridiculous! I'd want to slap that person awake! (haha not really) but, this taps into that "dreaminess" that I know of myself well. The dreams aren't there for me to compare myself to a vision and to point out what I currently don't have, but those dreams are there to propel me forward. It's a what-if question, turned positive.

If I fail at something, it can sting momentarily, but it hardly damages my enthusiasm to move forward. So long as that dream is kept alive in me and is well, nothing can stop me. And, if I actually accomplish something, I accept it with gratitude and move forward humbled.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Failure is great in the arts because it helps you get over yourself. It helps the creative process to have no fear of external value judgments, but to focus inwardly with as much clarity as possible. I don't put much hope or expectation in external success or failure at this point in my life.

I've even found that climbing the ladder of success isn't nearly as much fun as sliding down it.

 

[á´…eparted]

Well it's more of a philosophy article than a science article, but honestly it was a quick google search afterthought for the filler purposes of giving people something to read. I was mostly curious how people personally see failure, as I have a pet theory on the issue. Given the demographics of this forum I predicted either mostly crickets or responses like yours- that the idea of failure, or any aspect of life that isn't perpetuallly reassuring you that you're a perfect beautiful snowflake, "makes your skin crawl."

I am going to set aside the fact that this is yet another veiled attempt to put others down and assert your self-determined superiority over everyone here. I'm going to address this as-is.

To the bold, you know, what exactly is wrong with that? Nothing. So what if someone sees themselves as a perfect special snow flake. That is a quality to a person. One can take it or leave it, but the quality is not negative unless it is connected to bad behavior that negatively impacts others. The world is a very cruel, unfeeling place. The universe doesn't give a shit about anyone, or anything. It simply is. Why is it so bad for someone to create or see themselves as special in order to cope and live a fulfilling life? Why is feeling or seeing themselves that way incompatible with having a healthy relationship and outlook on failure? These questions are rhetorical of course, but there really isn't anything wrong with the types of people you're asserting against here.

All that said, I'm a 1w2. Do you honestly think I see myself as a perfect special snowflake? I'm very hard on myself. I don't need something or someone else to add more to the pile. Much more so when I already know or am aware of what is being said.

It's as if you want to torpedo anyone who has even an ounce of self-esteem.

 

[Typh0n]

Theres an old saying that goes something like "you don't fail when you fall flat on your face, you only fail when you give up". Something like that.

The point is, there is a difference between falling on your face and failing. If you fall on your face, you can get up and keep trying if you want the result bad enough. In fact, this is what usually happens in life, I find for most succesful people I observe. It's a general rule of success. If you lose a million times and don't give up, you'll start to win, so long as you are willing to learn from the losing. You have to keep trying to get somewhere. It just almost never happens the first time you try, whether its finding a mate, looking for a job, mastering a sport, a game like Magic: the Gathering, or getting in shape physically, it takes persistance and willingness to accept loss.

Damn, I feel like a motivational speaker now, lol, but the whole point I'm trying to make is that it makes little since to zero in on failure for its own sake. Better to keep you sights on the results.

 

[anticlimatic]

I am going to set aside the fact that this is yet another veiled attempt to put others down and assert your self-determined superiority over everyone here.

First, if you were going to "set aside" that "fact," the above quote wouldn't exist.

Second, the "fact" is your projection, and in no way represents my motives or actions. It is, rather, a veiled attempt by you to manipulate my words into an infractionable offense so that the mods will shut me down and preserve your ever shrinking safe space. You have confirmed more than once that is your goal, so don't look cross at me for calling you out on it.

I'm going to address this as-is. To the bold, you know, what exactly is wrong with that? Nothing. So what if someone sees themselves as a perfect special snow flake. That is a quality to a person. One can take it or leave it, but the quality is not negative unless it is connected to bad behavior that negatively impacts others.

It negatively impacts the person who believes it, or believes it a thing to strive for. Just look at yourself- going by your own words you hate life and seem terrified of everything. I don't think your worldview philosophy is working very well. Presenting a counter approach is a product of concern, from me, for you. It is not an attempt to insult or put you down. You don't have to care, or believe it, or listen, but that's ultimately what it is.

Why is it so bad for someone to create or see themselves as special in order to cope and live a fulfilling life? Why is feeling or seeing themselves that way incompatible with having a healthy relationship and outlook on failure? These questions are rhetorical of course

Going to answer them anyway.

It's bad because it isn't true, and only sets a person up for disappointment and low self esteem. If you think you're supposed to be perfect, or inherently special and valuable, every time you encounter something in life that indicates otherwise will seem like a damaging blow. If you think you're supposed to be imperfect, and inherently flawed and non essential, every time you encounter something in life that confirms that will simply feel expected and of no major consequence. When you idle at failure, success becomes the exception to the expected rule- not the rule itself- to the effect that it elevates you, and becomes the only thing that can elevate you. Now you have an endless reason to try try try with essentially nothing to lose: now life has purpose, and with it meaning.

It's as if you want to torpedo anyone who has even an ounce of self-esteem.

Just because I'm not handing out free fish doesn't mean I want people to starve. Better a person learns to fish for themselves, even if they think they disagree.

 

[á´…eparted]

First, if you were going to "set aside" that "fact," the above quote wouldn't exist.

Second, the "fact" is your projection, and in no way represents my motives or actions. It is, rather, a veiled attempt by you to manipulate my words into an infractionable offense so that the mods will shut me down and preserve your ever shrinking safe space. You have confirmed more than once that is your goal, so don't look cross at me for calling you out on it.

What's there to call out? It's no secret I want to you gone, because in my opinion you have done far more than enough to warrant it. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way either. This is not projection either, because you demonstrated time and time again that you do indeed, put others down. If you think that this topic or post is worth infracting, or even worth trying to frame it being worth infracting, then you don't understand where the lines of rules exist. Besides, I need not, nor anyone else manipulate your words. They have and do speak for themselves.

It negatively impacts the person who believes it, or believes it a thing to strive for. Just look at yourself- going by your own words you hate life and seem terrified of everything. I don't think your worldview philosophy is working very well. Presenting a counter approach is a product of concern, from me, for you. It is not an attempt to insult or put you down. You don't have to care, or believe it, or listen, but that's ultimately what it is.

You do not know me, nor understand why I think and feel the way I do. I have lived the past 6 years of my life under a relentless attack by failure. I've had enough, and I do not need that level of it to thrive. Things have recently changed though and I am ok with life- for now. What I can say though, is your philosophical suggestion is one that would be unhelpful to me.

Again, you have a track-record. This is why I did not trust your motives. Also for the record I did not feel insulted or put-down by you. It wasn't directed at me personally. That said, what I bolded? That IS a putdown, regardless of if you intended it that way or not.

Going to answer them anyway.

It's bad because it isn't true, and only sets a person up for disappointment and low self esteem. If you think you're supposed to be perfect, or inherently special and valuable, every time you encounter something in life that indicates otherwise will seem like a damaging blow. If you think you're supposed to be imperfect, and inherently flawed and non essential, every time you encounter something in life that confirms that will simply feel expected and of no major consequence. When you idle at failure, success becomes the exception to the expected rule- not the rule itself- to the effect that it elevates you, and becomes the only thing that can elevate you. Now you have an endless reason to try try try with essentially nothing to lose: now life has purpose, and with it meaning.

Just because I'm not handing out free fish doesn't mean I want people to starve. Better a person learns to fish for themselves, even if they think they disagree.

That works for you. I would not work for me. Which isn't surprising as we're very different people. I am finding my own way to create meaning in my life, and living in a state of failure would prevent that from being possible. It's not a way of being or a life that I am willing to live. You're sort of asking everyone to try and live in as harsh of a world as possible, and embrace it. We don't have to though, and it's not a weakness, delusional, or a flaw to seek out comfort, reassurance, or expect positive outcomes from time to time.

 

[Jaguar]

The article is not about failure. But this thread is.

 

[anticlimatic]

Again, you have a track-record. This is why I did not trust your motives.

The only "track record" I have here is brutal honesty without regard for how it makes me look and occasionally being misunderstood in the process. Why would I suddenly break protocol just to pander to someone like you? I constantly get accused of dishonesty here which seems absurd to me considering the price I've paid for my honesty.

You're sort of asking everyone to try and live in as harsh of a world as possible, and embrace it. We don't have to though, and it's not a weakness, delusional, or a flaw to seek out comfort, reassurance, or expect positive outcomes from time to time.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything, not even "sort of." Also yeah, there is nothing wrong with doing pretty much anything "from time to time." All I am doing here is expressing ideas to be considered on their own merits with logic and reasoning, and I am sharing detailed bits of personal information as illustrative anecdotes to help communicate and possibly support those ideas. When I discover something that works, my first inclination is to share it with everyone- never impose it on anyone- because I love people and wand to see every last one of them succeed and be happy. Can you say the same?

 

[Lord Lavender]

Failure is a part of life and to a degree its all around us depending on how sensitive your failure radar is in a way. For instance someone who is hyperaware of failure could see getting out of bed 3 mins late as a failure but generally failure is a concept of a goal or target not being met such as failing to be a moral person or failing to cook a steak properly. Failures do deserve praise in the fact that they can be lessons to learn from and assess what went wrong and even generate new ideas from the unforeseen failure. Failed to finish a race in time, try a new vehicle!. Failed to return a library book on time, just get rid of some scrap spare change e.t.c.

However some failures are hard to recover from and that is why we have damage control to prevent any failures from being too damaging like for example insurance if you fail to keep your home from catching fire or a back up account if your venture goes to ruin e.t.c. Failure is what I like to call a "force" of sorts since its all around us like success is in many ways.

 

[Frosty]

I think that... failure is over all a good thing in the right doses. Its about proportion I think.

The danger of saying that failure is a good thing is that... for some people, like so many other things, it can become sort of a trap. If you find yourself failing again and again, eventually it is going to become harder for you to convince yourself to get back up again. At some point I think, if the feeling of failure is just too pervasive, then it becomes impossible to keep trying.

That limit is different for different people, but I think- its there.

I think it takes a lot to reach it for most people. That along the way, a person can find themselves failing- feeling crushed by it- and then getting back up and learning from that failure. I think this can happen again and again, and to some extent, yes, I do think it does make you stronger.

As long as the urge to get back up is stronger than the urge to stay lying down. And as long as you are in a place where you can recognize that you do have a choice.

Anyways. Yes. Its as important to fail sometimes as it is to succeed at others. But the complete absence of one or the other... I dont think that is a good thing.

 

[anticlimatic]

If you find yourself failing again and again, eventually it is going to become harder for you to convince yourself to get back up again. At some point I think, if the feeling of failure is just too pervasive, then it becomes impossible to keep trying.

It's true that excessive failure can be discouraging, but each one should come with a boost to learning that offsets the discouragement as far as benefiting the individual goes. Some endeavors are more about playing the odds than learning- like say applying for jobs over and over again against other candidates who are identically qualified just waiting for your luck to finally cash in. Trying for things that are mostly out of your hands or control is a different kind of beast. Failure to do something you set out to do is not quite the same as a failure to get what you want. If it's a task that's within your complete control, and each failure is converted into a learning experience, then each subsequent effort should get one closer and closer to the goal, even if they ultimately fail. This incremental advancement from the first attempt should have the effect of being more encouraging than discouraging. Forward progress!

 

[Frosty]

It's true that excessive failure can be discouraging, but each one should come with a boost to learning that offsets the discouragement as far as benefiting the individual goes. Some endeavors are more about playing the odds than learning- like say applying for jobs over and over again against other candidates who are identically qualified just waiting for your luck to finally cash in. Trying for things that are mostly out of your hands or control is a different kind of beast. Failure to do something you set out to do is not quite the same as a failure to get what you want. If it's a task that's within your complete control, and each failure is converted into a learning experience, then each subsequent effort should get one closer and closer to the goal, even if they ultimately fail. This incremental advancement from the first attempt should have the effect of being more encouraging than discouraging. Forward progress!

Its. I dont know if this is going to make sense.

But say a person has lived under a rock their entire life. This is in a large part their entire perspective on the world. Sure, sometimes they get word that there is something better out there, that they can somehow move out from under that rock if they just 'work hard enough' or 'think more positively' or 'think of this as a learning experience'- but the more and more they hear about this amazing other reality- and the more they find themselves incapable- no matter how hard they try- to get out from under the rock... the more defeated that they might feel. They hear of this wonderful 'success' that is just out of their reach- slmething they are told of, but they themselves, in that moment, just cannot lift that rock.

Because sometimes, you can fail at something and you just do not have the honest capability to learn from it. If you are constantly slammed with failure, you can try to get back up, but oftentimes you just dont have the chance before something comes to push you down again.

I think that the idea of 'failure being a great learning experience' is a good one, in theory. But it just doesnt always reflect the reality for a lot of people, and in some ways- when you hear that messege that 'you can learn from all of this, if you just try hard enough'- well it can kind of be offensive.

Because a lot of people, dont have any other choice but to struggle. And when you are struggling and the honest best you can do is just stay afloat- hearing someone say that they choose to put themselves in the line of failure... it just seems dismissive of just how hard it is to constantly- when it isnt your choice- struggle with just how pervasive and unrelenting failure can be.

Im not saying you are trying to be offensive. Im just saying, this is a very complex topic. Failure isnt good, it isnt bad- but for some people its not some sort of tool they can use. Sometimes its just a lot more than that.