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Which approach do you prefer: philosophy or science?

Korvinagor

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Hrm. I've heard somewhere that science stemmed from philosophy?

I mean, generally speaking for both, you're making an assumption about how the way the world works, then you see if that assumption makes sense.

Or something like that.
 

Polaris

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I prefer whichever approach is best suited to my problem at a given time. If I'm working with technology, I use a mainly scientific approach; if I'm wondering about the nature of reality, I use a philosophical approach.
 

Coriolis

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Hrm. I've heard somewhere that science stemmed from philosophy?

I mean, generally speaking for both, you're making an assumption about how the way the world works, then you see if that assumption makes sense.
How does one test a philosophical assumption?

FWIW, most doctoral degrees in the sciences - physics, chemistry, biology, etc. - are "Doctor of Philosophy" degrees.

I prefer whichever approach is best suited to my problem at a given time. If I'm working with technology, I use a mainly scientific approach; if I'm wondering about the nature of reality, I use a philosophical approach.
As I keep saying - the right tool for the job.
 

anticlimatic

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Philosophy lost me at Zeno's paradox. Seems to me to be a scientific exercise in how many ridiculous ways we can shape neuron networks in our brain absent context but with axiomal fixation. As a means to its own end I'd say it's pretty pointless, but as the nature of extroverted intuition goes, sometimes randomly organizing things for the sake of randomly organizing them can yield both surprising discoveries and novel inspiration incidentally.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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Philosophy is more fun. Probably because there are fewer constraints. On the other hand, as quietist philosophers say, philosophy is mostly useless. Yes, it is a bit unfair: there are many good philosophers (mostly those who consider logic and empirical evidence) with some brilliant ideas. On the other hand, when we consider the fruit of philosophy, we can see a lot of weird stuff, like tomism, marxism-leninism, objectivism, critical theory, post-modernism etc., that have wrecked havoc on the human civilisation. Science, even with gunpowder and the atomic theory, has nothing on philosophy in terms of entertainment value.
 

Virtual ghost

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Philosophy is more fun. Probably because there are fewer constraints. On the other hand, as quietist philosophers say, philosophy is mostly useless. Yes, it is a bit unfair: there are many good philosophers (mostly those who consider logic and empirical evidence) with some brilliant ideas. On the other hand, when we consider the fruit of philosophy, we can see a lot of weird stuff, like tomism, marxism-leninism, objectivism, critical theory, post-modernism etc., that have wrecked havoc on the human civilisation. Science, even with gunpowder and the atomic theory, has nothing on philosophy in terms of entertainment value.


I find that claim to be highly subjective and possibly indicative of the idea that you never ventured deep into the science.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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I find that claim to be highly subjective and possibly indicative of the idea that you never ventured deep into the science.

I can see two options here:

A. You have misunderstood my intention. The "entertainment value" was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the damage caused by some bad philosophical ideas mentioned in the previous sentence.

B. You have understood what I meant but you think that science is more destructive. We could argue that if it is really your point.
 

Virtual ghost

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I can see two options here:

A. You have misunderstood my intention. The "entertainment value" was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the damage caused by some bad philosophical ideas mentioned in the previous sentence.

B. You have understood what I meant but you think that science is more destructive. We could argue that if it is really your point.


C. English isn't my first language and I am too busy to bother reading between the lines. :wink:

All I ever saw is that you find philosophy more entertaining. Therefore I said what I said because I think that science is more interesting once you really get into it. (what most people never do since that requires concrete/official education and therefore the concrete knowledge of science is harder to obtain)



But yes, I disagree. I think that science is potentially more destructive if missused, since it allows ideas to materialize (plus is it is much easier to missuse). In other words without science there wouldn't really be any of the things you have named and all you would have is people freezing in the caves. Science and Philosophy interact but without science philosophy actually has a very weak connection to reality. Scientists or engineers without any philosophy can kill people with viruses, chemicals,bombs or nukes for fun or profit while philosopher is much less likely to do a massive damage and even if it does happen it happens very indirectly through other people. Most leaders who did attrocities did that through implementation of science and they ignored philosophy, since all they ever really cared about is power.



On the other hand Science-Philosophy isn't the only axis and in my opinion history of mankind is actually the triangle between Science, Philosophy and Politics. What means that Science-Politics axis is surely the most destructive one. Philosophy is nice add-on into the mix but it isn't vital for the "whole show", especially since the absence of philosophy is generally the precondition for uncontrolled attrocities.
 

Lark

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Treating science as a complete doctrine is called scientism, its not a great idea.
 

EnnisPreit

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I think that philosophy and science are two very different approaches to understanding. I also find that science people often dislike (or are at least fairly disinterested in) philosophy, and that philosophy people also are also more skeptical of science as an absolute. Science people tend to view science as more of an absolute, where philosophy people view science as a branch of philosophy.


I also read tha Carl Sagan quote about how science is more a method of knowledge than a body of facts (or something like that), and while that may be, many science people seem to dislike philosophy nonetheless

Also, I know that guys like Isaac Newton, Aristotle, Descartes, etc were into both philosophy and science, but they lived at a time when science was so much less developped than today. It's not comparable.

Thoughts? :D Which do you prefer philosophy or science and most importantly, why?

Because science wasn't as developed doesn't take away from what it is. A process. A process for finding the reliability of a hypothesis.

For instance, using the constellations to determine when to plant your crops and harvest them is surely science no?

Philosophy is the attempt to question somethings validity, science the attempt to test it. North Pole South Pole. ;)
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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But yes, I disagree. I think that science is potentially more destructive if missused, since it allows ideas to materialize (plus is it is much easier to missuse). In other words without science there wouldn't really be any of the things you have named and all you would have is people freezing in the caves. Science and Philosophy interact but without science philosophy actually has a very weak connection to reality. Scientists or engineers without any philosophy can kill people with viruses, chemicals,bombs or nukes for fun or profit while philosopher is much less likely to do a massive damage and even if it does happen it happens very indirectly through other people. Most leaders who did attrocities did that through implementation of science and they ignored philosophy, since all they ever really cared about is power.

Yes, it has crossed my mind that science could be potentially more deadly in the future. It actually can destroy the human race. But then, it's rather unlikely that it would happen for fun or profit of the scientists. More likely, some philosophical idea would be in the driving seat, using science for its ideological ends. Isn't it how it usually happens?

And historically, there were many cases when philosophy managed great feats of destruction without much help from science. Famine in Ukraine, gulags, the Cultural Revolution, Pol Pot, these were all low tech endeavours resulting in death of millions. As a matter of fact, some of them were rather anti-science. And I am not even talking about social and cultural damage here.



On the other hand Science-Philosophy isn't the only axis and in my opinion history of mankind is actually the triangle between Science, Philosophy and Politics. What means that Science-Politics axis is surely the most destructive one. Philosophy is nice add-on into the mix but it isn't vital for the "whole show", especially since the absence of philosophy is generally the precondition for uncontrolled attrocities.

You might be right about politics being the most destructive, but the thread is about science and philosophy. If we were to add more nodes, it wouldn't be a triangle, but at least a pentagon - Economy and Religion can surely hold their own in the competition.
 

Virtual ghost

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Yes, it has crossed my mind that science could be potentially more deadly in the future. It actually can destroy the human race. But then, it's rather unlikely that it would happen for fun or profit of the scientists. More likely, some philosophical idea would be in the driving seat, using science for its ideological ends. Isn't it how it usually happens?

And historically, there were many cases when philosophy managed great feats of destruction without much help from science. Famine in Ukraine, gulags, the Cultural Revolution, Pol Pot, these were all low tech endeavours resulting in death of millions. As a matter of fact, some of them were rather anti-science. And I am not even talking about social and cultural damage here.



No, not really. Traditionally what happens is that an individual or a group of people desires to have all the power and therefore they use both science and philosophy as the means to achieve their ends. Science for practical things or foundations and philosophy for "people management" if necessary. However all of this combined is more of a politics than philosophy if we judge by definitions.



However I generally find your perspective to be incorrect because lowtech and hightech are both science. Even the tribal people from 20 000 years ago when they used stone knives or they were enhancing their spears they used science, since science is knowledge about physical world. In other words famine in Ukraine would not be possible without agricultural science that made all those crops possible in the first place (I have grown a part of my own food so I know that this isn't as simple as some people imagine it). Gulags are also impossible without science since in order to build them you need metallurgy, mining, electricity, plenty of construction materials and tools, fossil fuels and their complex production etc. Also the current volume of killings through history would not be possible without weapons and weapons for thousands of years are nothing more than applied science. Especially after the point when metallurgy came into play a few thousand years ago, since finding, extracting, separating and processing of metal ore isn't trivial business at all. In a sense all cultural revolutions are the same case since without science there would be no society and you would have people freezing in the caves. Therefore there would be no philosophy as well, which is basically revision of what was done so far. However the world can exist without someone doing the revision of it. In the other words cultural revolutions generally are direct consequence of technological development (science), since technology has allowed someone to take too big piece of "the cake". Therefore I claim that people who are not scientists or engineers don't trully understand what hard science really is and how important it actually is. Since just about everything stands on it and therefore it is precondition to have everything else.





However from more modern perspetive:
As a matter of fact the number one reason why this world is falling apart is because we made huge technological progress while our upper management didn't change all that much through centuries. Since main decision makers are completely scientifically illiterate and know nothing about: Medicine, food production, construction, chemistry, energetics, engineering etc. What makes them completely incompetent to lead the world built on the products of technological progress. Since their understanding of what is really going on is limited since their worldviews are built on money dynamics and cheap ideology.



If you want concrete examples what science is capable of: take a look what robot revolution is bringing when it comes to economy and money flow. With robots/machines as the bulk of workforce you can throw huge chunks of philosophy, economy and politics into trash. Also take a look at what computers did and how they allowed the creation of digital money and global market ... and where that leads. Evolution is challanging of religion. The same can be said about environmental science that challanges many of the dogmas that existed for thousands of years, since it proves that we can fundamentally change this planet. In other words through technological development the social power of science will only grow compared with other aspects of society.

People are attracted to philosophy since it is more human focused and less abstract but science is where the real power is (especially if politics or common sense stand behind it). The typical philosopher can't: assest the quality of ore rich site, they don't know any interactions between human body and meds or how deseases develope, they don't know which building materials are better and more fire proof, they can't make a detailed analysis of danger that objects in outer space posses (they may not even know that such objects exist), they don't know how to cope with droughts, they can't asses safe from unsafe nuclear plant, they don't know how to make a car and what materials you need for that, they don't know how to maintain powerlines, most of them probably never even studied geo sciences and how Earth's systems actually work etc etc. Therefore when you draw the bottom line it is questionable if classical/typical philosophers should be included into decision making since their knowledge of the problems and procedures at hand is very limited and therefore they are likely to miss the key point(s), make bad judgement and focus on the wrong things. In other words we are living in the world where a scientist has to be a philosopher and scientist at the same time, since the philosopher lacks the knowledge to keep up with most things (and therefore they can't really be too dangerous, unless of course politics decides to give them a hand, however even politics is standing on science).



Therefore if science trully decides to destroy this world for whatever the reason there is very little what others can do about it. Since hard science is the foundation on which everything is build on and therefore it has the means to push things into practice, while others can't do that without the help of hard science or applying of it. As someone once said: There is only one reason why this planet wasn't ravaged by deadly bacteria and that is "The ethics of generic engineers" (and for this scenario you probably don't need more than a dozen brilliant minds that are simply bored).



You might be right about politics being the most destructive, but the thread is about science and philosophy. If we were to add more nodes, it wouldn't be a triangle, but at least a pentagon - Economy and Religion can surely hold their own in the competition.


That occured to me but I am from the ex-communist country and I consider both Religion and Economy to be just the extensions of the Politics. After all my government nationalized 20% of GDP in a single move just a few months ago ... and they don't plan to stop there.
 

senza tema

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Objectivity by Lorraine Daston and Peter Gallison

This book is one of the greatest things ever written in the field of the history of science and should be required reading for everyone who is interested in the intersections of science and philosophy.

(Actually it should be required reading for everyone on this forum given the alarming rate at which claims to objectivity are tossed around here ...)

No, seriously, it's a great fucking read. It's as entertaining as it is erudite.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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No, not really. Traditionally what happens is that an individual or a group of people desires to have all the power and therefore they use both science and philosophy as the means to achieve their ends. Science for practical things or foundations and philosophy for "people management" if necessary. However all of this combined is more of a politics than philosophy if we judge by definitions.



However I generally find your perspective to be incorrect because lowtech and hightech are both science. Even the tribal people from 20 000 years ago when they used stone knives or they were enhancing their spears they used science, since science is knowledge about physical world. In other words famine in Ukraine would not be possible without agricultural science that made all those crops possible in the first place (I have grown a part of my own food so I know that this isn't as simple as some people imagine it). Gulags are also impossible without science since in order to build them you need metallurgy, mining, electricity, plenty of construction materials and tools, fossil fuels and their complex production etc. Also the current volume of killings through history would not be possible without weapons and weapons for thousands of years are nothing more than applied science. Especially after the point when metallurgy came into play a few thousand years ago, since finding, extracting, separating and processing of metal ore isn't trivial business at all. In a sense all cultural revolutions are the same case since without science there would be no society and you would have people freezing in the caves. Therefore there would be no philosophy as well, which is basically revision of what was done so far. However the world can exist without someone doing the revision of it. In the other words cultural revolutions generally are direct consequence of technological development (science), since technology has allowed someone to take too big piece of "the cake". Therefore I claim that people who are not scientists or engineers don't trully understand what hard science really is and how important it actually is. Since just about everything stands on it and therefore it is precondition to have everything else.

I can't really argue with most of what you are saying, but partially it's because your definition of science is so broad that it is almost meaningless. By this definition we don't have to stop 20K years ago - chimpanzees and dolphins are also scientists. This is trivially true, but not very useful in comparing science and philosophy. And why leave "people management" out? Isn't this a practical thing? Aren't people a part of the natural world? Isn't scientific method useful in gaining knowledge of human psyche? By the same token, science encompasses politics as well (as political science).

But if you are allowed to use a broad definition, then so am I. In a broad sense, philosophy is also encompassing all branches of knowledge as the actual meaning of the word indicates. This is how it was seen by the Greeks. This is why Newton called his magnum opus Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. This is why astronomers and physicists earn the title of Doctor of Philosophy. Even more importantly, in a broad sense every ideology is philosophy as ideologies describe ideas related to values, relationships between people and groups and sometimes even the fundamental nature of the universe, just like some branches of philosophy. Even politics and power is included (e.g. Plato, Locke, Marx). So we have here things like nationalism, capitalism, liberalism. All driving forces in politics and world power struggles. And let's not forget about religious philosophy.

So in the end we can both claim a lot. Though in reality we are talking about the same things, just looking at them from slightly different angles :)
 

Cellmold

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It's hard to approach as a dichotomy, what tends to meld in practice.

If there is a person on the planet that does not possess a form of philosophy, even if it is informal and unrecognised by themselves, I'd be fascinated to meet them. This sounds tautological but I'd argue it's rather inherent. Which isn't to say I don't recognise conflict, differences of opinion and areas of categorisation with different outcomes.

PS: As an aside for possibly a new thread entirely: anyone else think utilitarianism has become somewhat of a dirty or forbidden word that causes alarming reactions? See I understand the kind of frustration that comes with being rebuked by those who insist on only a very specific context of perception for an action (as in say...not speculating about big questions of being while you are also trying to build a shed), but it's largely quite encompassing if often prone to differences in opinion, such as someone who would state a grand, emotional and spiritual connection with a universe or universes and might be put off by the idea that there is a utility in that despite the fact that there is a tangible, emotional benefit for doing so.

Although there are also often downsides as well. Be careful with belief & take responsibility for the damage yours could cause.
 

Virtual ghost

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I can't really argue with most of what you are saying, but partially it's because your definition of science is so broad that it is almost meaningless. By this definition we don't have to stop 20K years ago - chimpanzees and dolphins are also scientists. This is trivially true, but not very useful in comparing science and philosophy. And why leave "people management" out? Isn't this a practical thing? Aren't people a part of the natural world? Isn't scientific method useful in gaining knowledge of human psyche? By the same token, science encompasses politics as well (as political science).

But if you are allowed to use a broad definition, then so am I. In a broad sense, philosophy is also encompassing all branches of knowledge as the actual meaning of the word indicates. This is how it was seen by the Greeks. This is why Newton called his magnum opus Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. This is why astronomers and physicists earn the title of Doctor of Philosophy. Even more importantly, in a broad sense every ideology is philosophy as ideologies describe ideas related to values, relationships between people and groups and sometimes even the fundamental nature of the universe, just like some branches of philosophy. Even politics and power is included (e.g. Plato, Locke, Marx). So we have here things like nationalism, capitalism, liberalism. All driving forces in politics and world power struggles. And let's not forget about religious philosophy.

So in the end we can both claim a lot. Though in reality we are talking about the same things, just looking at them from slightly different angles :)



I know that this is a horrible thing to say but I really don't think we are looking at things from just slightly different perspetives (but that is perfectly fine). After all you seem to be more driven by understanding while I am more driven by results. Also to be honest I don't like word "Science" since it is unspecific and from where I am comming from the term more referes to the "Hard science". Therefore I know that my definition of science is broad or unspecific but science is quite broad field and that is exactly why I claim that people who are not into hard science have the wrong picture of what it really is, since it is much more impotant then many people realize. Philosophy is pretty much always academic/elitistic but science really doesn't have to be since quite large chunk of it is comming down to everyday stuff and problems what need to be fixed. Therefore it is simply wrong to consider half crazy nerds closed in labs that happen to wear white robes as the only possible or good representation of science.


Therefore since we are comming from different environments we are unlikely to agree about many "details". However since I plan to have Summer fun in the incomming days I wouldn't be around much, so it really doesn't matter. :)
 

Mole

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Without critical thinking there is no science, and interestingly without critical thinking we don't get modern philosophy, we get consolation. Yes, without critical thinking philosophy becomes a way of living, a way of living in the modern world, without critical thinking we use philosophy to make us feel better, to console ourselves.

And of course a philosophy of life can't afford to think critically, for critical thinking precipitates cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful, and a philosophy of life is consoling and enhances our self esteem, and is not having any cognitive dissonance and emotional pain.

The price for a consoling and a self esteem philosophy is we lose the ability to learn.

And a philosophy of life is quite like a religion. It is like Buddhism which is like a philosophy of life, it is like Islam which is a philosophy of the whole of life, and it is like Christianity which is deeply consoling. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. Religion provides consolation to billions of people, so it is only natural that philosophy is put to the same use.

Western philosophy began 3,000 years ago with Socrates in the market place. And Socrates led the way with critical thinking, he was so successful in creating cognitive dissonance and emotional pain, the good people of Athens accused Socrates of corrupting youth and saw that he was put to death for philosophy.

Today the good people of Athens have won as our whole society is devoted to consolation, rather than critical thinking, indeed typology central is devoted to consolation, and avidly joins the ranks of religion. Take that, Socrates.
 
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