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  1. #71
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ...
    My point is parallel to yours. Why make a big deal about death when there's so much to appreciate and think about with whatever remaining time you have. It's just a bit daft in my opinion. It WILL happen. You CAN'T control or do anything about it so why run around thinking about it, theorising... though I admit that with this thread I may be treading that very path right now.
    ...
    I agree with you in that there are some people who spend too much time thinking about or worrying about death, but I have always considered such persons mentally or emotionally unstable, for certainly it's not "normal" to go around consumed with the fear of dying 24/7. But is that what this thread is addressing... the propensity of a small handful of neurotic people?

    In my opinion, it's not any more healthy to never think about death, to live in denial and pretend it doesn't exist. Moses prayed, "Lord teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom." I believe it is healthy to assess our life every now and then, to look at how we've spent our time, to use wisely what we have left, assuming we live an "average" life span. No, we don't have any control over when we die, but we do have some control over how we live. I may be taking some points of my own world view for granted here, but I thought all human beings wanted purpose and meaning in their lives.

    I don't know if you've ever heard of the young man from Australia, Nick Vujicic, who was born without limbs, but I just heard him on the radio yesterday, and he made this very profound statement: "Life without purpose is life without meaning, and life without meaning is life without hope."

    The reason it is good to consider the brevity of our lives is so that we may choose to have purpose and meaning, and to do something good with our lives.

  2. #72
    brat Mitzy's Avatar
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    death is annoying cuz you never know when its coming
    you never know HOW its coming
    and you dont know whether its gonna hurt or not

    i dont have a problem with death
    but i do have a problem with time.
    im more afraid of time than death

  3. #73
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    Death is the end of you, and thus, the end of the universe.

    Kind of a big deal.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Death is when every problem resolves itself.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    As very expressed INTJ I will say that am discussing the absolute truth.
    This assumes a few things; that there is an absolute truth, that the human mind can understand and that the human has the means to uncover it.

    What makes you think that a cold rational evaluation, devoid of emotion and spirituality, is anymore likely to figure out the answer to this cosmic question? As we do not know that answer, you do not know that it can be uncovered through rational thought and empirical measurement (considering empirical can't provide an explanation for more than 5% of the matter we know must exist in the universe I'd say it has a good way to come yet). It is as likely that some deep spiritual meditation may reveal the true nature of reality as some hard cold science. I do prefer the science approach, it at least often gives result people mostly agree upon.

    All I'm suggesting is that your rational quest for enlightenment may be running down the wrong path and you'd be as immune to see how as the spiritual guru is of seeing your route, if you do happen to be on the true path to understanding reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That's the thing though, thought IS a large part of my life. Trying to just go through life mindlessly doing without reflection would be as bad as telling your husband to become an emotionless automaton! Not only is it unlikely but it's also likely to get a rather emphatic response in the plane of NO.
    No one has told me to become an emotionless automation! Though I reject the implicit suggestion that I'm a mindless bundle of emotion that doesn't reflect upon his life or his choices. In the same way Xander, no one has told you to become a mindless bundle of emotions either, merely suggest that they are concerned that you sound like you're trying to be an emotionless automation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Well, to me, it's because I find value in the experience.

    I think one of my driving questions in life is "What does it mean to be human?" so that I can truly understand the big picture and live the most fulfilling life.
    I never even understood why people asked that question never-mind any of the answers. What does it mean to be a dog? Well it means you're a dog... that's kind of cause and effect there. All else is individual in my opinion. The only reason for non biological correlation is cumulative chance in my eyes.
    So you're answer to the question "what does it mean to be human?" is that it means you are a human? That rather stumps self actualization in it's tracks. So much for introspection, and there's your answer... it means you are a human, death should hold no fear, and thus there is no point to your life! Welcome to the Nihilistic Desert, please drive dangerously.

    So back to the OP (ish)

    Death, what's the problem? There is no problem it will definitely happen and while I expect that nothing may happen afterward I have no way to know that. All I do know is that everything that seems real and certain to me ends there. Whatever comes after, be it nothing at all or some form of afterlife, probably bears Little resemblance to this life. In other words, this is my only shot, the only chance I have to learn as much as I can about me and how the universe appears to me!

    This means that I naturally don't want to die, because I'm not satisfied with the experiences I've had so far. These experiences, compared to the almost limitless opportunities for new ones that my mind can perceive leaves me very dissatisfied with the thought of the story end now. I've lived though; I've no regrets in that manner, but I want more. If I went now I'd be happy with what I made of the time I had but I'd desperately wish I'd got a fuller share. When people talk about having something to achieve that they haven't yet. It is the thought/feeling that there was so much more left to do, not a sense of having done everything. I'd guess I'd feel a little cheated, I expect that over time I'd still want longer to live but that feeling, of being cheated of the full human experience, would diminish.

    It also means I don't want others to die (this is all the philosophical point of view, not emotional, and is general not specific). Their death removes opportunities for a unique experience for me, and for a new opportunity for me to learn about myself. This would be selfish, if there lingering would extend their pain, that is something I'd not want. But death is the ultimate end of the road, all that is left is memories, they are great and can sustain a love for someone but they don't add to our understanding of the world like new interaction would. Emotionally I hate death, I totally hate it, that hatred extends to most of the causes of death, so encompasses the pain that often comes with the process. I accept it, but accepting it doesn't mean liking it.

    I think the most futile thing ever said to someone grieving is "It's OK". You know what, it isn't bloody OK, it's bloody wrong, it's bloody fucked, that man/woman/father/son/mother/daughter/lover/friend that has died is gone! How can that be OK? I'll never see them again in this life, and the hope of the next? that is rather vain isn't it? It is not alright, it is not OK. Is it normal and natural, of course it is! Is it selfish to wallow in such emotion? I doubt it, who is it hurting? Wishing it can't actually bring someone back to suffer more pain (not that I'd want to do that ever, I'd rather they were gone than have them suffer on indefinitely, and not that that is what we want when we wish they were still here) but that is just it they are gone. If that isn't worth crying about then nothing is.

    All this sounds rather like I'm hung up on it! I'm not, I just think things need some perspective, death is not evil in or of itself, but in others it makes my experience of the world smaller by one personality, in myself it makes it smaller by ending it. So the mourning is both selfish and altruistic, selfish in that I no longer have access to this person, this experience that I loved, and altruistic because they no longer have any experience at all (please remember that the pain associated with dying is generally local to that process, being alive doesn't equal constant intense pain). I remember crying about a stepbrother(ish) of mine, who was killed in a car crash (In New Zealand) when he was 16, I remember how I'd promised to buy him his first pint when we was 18... I remember the conversation to this day and it makes me want to cry; cos he never got to have a beer in a pub, a simple normal experience for most of us. Is that OK? Is that right? should we comfort ourselves that that is just life? Of course it just life but that doesn't mean we have to like it! Similarly, but on a larger scale your sister feels that way about your mum and Brandon, that your mum never got to know him. We do mourn for their loss as much as our own.

    How we react to it is for ourselves to decide what is right, I pick my fluffy F (probably quite dramatic way) over some of the more repressed or reserved approaches I've wished. When Pete died, we cried (I less than I wanted too as I felt I need to be strong for my mum which was probably a stupid concern) but we also celebrated his life. His service was full of his music and our fond memories of him in the full flush of his not half heartedly lived life! It was good, because it meant that we recalled who he was, not what killed him, how he had lived, not how he had died. I've been to funerals since where no one talked about it, no one talked about the man who'd died (which made it harder for me as I didn't know him at all). What was remembered was how he was supposed to be leaving hospital that day for home, (for palliative care but no one seems ready to admit that either). They did not join together and share their memories to help fix the good times in their minds, they dwelt on the finality of the moment and the awfulness of his last days. If I thought they were adjusted to the loss I'd not criticize someone else's approach but this didn't appear to me to be the case.

  6. #76
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Death is when every problem resolves itself.
    Yes, but only for the person who died.
    Not for everybody else.

  7. #77
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    ...
    Welcome to the Nihilistic Desert, please drive dangerously.


    ...
    I think the most futile thing ever said to someone grieving is "It's OK".
    I agree. My father said something like that to me when his mother died. I didn't care that she had lived a full life. Just then, I was FEELING the impact of not having her in my life anymore, and I wanted to cry. Crying relieves stress. Like love for the Velveteen Rabbit, crying makes you real, too.

    ...
    I remember crying about a stepbrother(ish) of mine, who was killed in a car crash (In New Zealand) when he was 16, I remember how I'd promised to buy him his first pint when we was 18... I remember the conversation to this day and it makes me want to cry; cos he never got to have a beer in a pub, a simple normal experience for most of us. Is that OK? Is that right? should we comfort ourselves that that is just life? Of course it just life but that doesn't mean we have to like it! Similarly, but on a larger scale your sister feels that way about your mum and Brandon, that your mum never got to know him. We do mourn for their loss as much as our own.
    Much like your plans to go to the Pub, I had planned to take my grandmother round to see people's homes decorated with Christmas lights, but she died a few days before I got home. Feeling the disappointment of that was something else I cried about.

    ...
    I've been to funerals since where no one talked about it, no one talked about the man who'd died (which made it harder for me as I didn't know him at all). What was remembered was how he was supposed to be leaving hospital that day for home, (for palliative care but no one seems ready to admit that either). They did not join together and share their memories to help fix the good times in their minds, they dwelt on the finality of the moment and the awfulness of his last days. If I thought they were adjusted to the loss I'd not criticize someone else's approach but this didn't appear to me to be the case.
    It sounds like perhaps the family was still in shock since it was opposite of what they were expecting, and hence probably somewhat sudden.

    When I lost my paternal grandmother, I wanted to talk about my good memories of her, and I wanted other people to share their good memories of her. That is the best gift you can give to a grieving person - to know that their loved one was important or special to you, too.

    It might seem rather morbid to some people, but I have educated myself in proper wake/funeral "etiquette". It's amazing how many people say stupid, useless and even hurtful things to the grieving. It's better to simply say, "I'm sorry for your loss." than to try to say anything more.

    What's also important for many grieving people is to not be alone. That's why I will attend a wake even if I didn't know the person well. Just the presence of other people in the same room is comforting.

    There are proper ways and improper ways to deal with emotional trauma or loss.
    Not grieving properly can stunt emotional growth.
    Grieving is an important emotional process even if it doesn't seem all that logical.

  8. #78
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Let me first respond to the most recent post and then work backwards.

    Dom, I'm no more an automaton than you. The matter of whether I find enjoyment in considering possibilities or leaping from a tall building with nothing but a table cloth to keep me from being the consistency of raspberry preserve is irrelevant. I enjoy my approach and intend to keep it. It satisfies who I am and therefore I do treat with suspicion those suggestions which appear to work against what I feel is more comfortable to me. That is not to say that I don't change, just because two paths never cross does not mean that neither winds and curves, only that they travel different paths. I do however watch more now for signs that I'm going too far down one path or the other, keeping your words in mind even if I choose not to follow them but merely to limit my divergence fro them.

    Anyhow, back to the original question and the thrust of your later argument. Death does not define me, merely limit the time in which I have to define that which is me and to investigate everything and basically live it up (heck if nothing else life is hedonistic, no?). What concerns me, and thus is the central thought running through my mind as I go through this thread, is why on earth people make such a fuss about death.

    To pull in the philosophical bent which you yourself included, according to some you are dead as soon as you leave my field of vision/ hearing. You cease to be as someone who interacts wit my conscious experience of the world and hence are, to me, effectively dead. Should I mourn your loss each time you leave my company? Should I take against any and all who may take your presence from mine? A reasonable man would say no, I'd wager. So then why should I mourn those who leave my side by manner of death? Sure I have a whole lot less hope of ever having them by my side again and yes that hurts like hell in certain instances but to go from that into, to quote another's words, borrowing stress from the future by continually thinking about their loss and mine is, to my mind, daft. Would you be concerned if I wasted our time, usually spent arguing about anything and everything (often in one overarching argument), in just sitting there weeping considering the time which may come when I am still alive and you are dead? No. So then why waste such time considering death at all? It will come, we have no means nor method of halting, predicting or slowing the final date. It is like an accident which has no cause.

    If you don't consider that you may cause a mass pile up every time you approach a road then why consider the end of your life any more than that?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #79
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I agree with you in that there are some people who spend too much time thinking about or worrying about death, but I have always considered such persons mentally or emotionally unstable, for certainly it's not "normal" to go around consumed with the fear of dying 24/7. But is that what this thread is addressing... the propensity of a small handful of neurotic people?

    In my opinion, it's not any more healthy to never think about death, to live in denial and pretend it doesn't exist. Moses prayed, "Lord teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom." I believe it is healthy to assess our life every now and then, to look at how we've spent our time, to use wisely what we have left, assuming we live an "average" life span. No, we don't have any control over when we die, but we do have some control over how we live. I may be taking some points of my own world view for granted here, but I thought all human beings wanted purpose and meaning in their lives.

    I don't know if you've ever heard of the young man from Australia, Nick Vujicic, who was born without limbs, but I just heard him on the radio yesterday, and he made this very profound statement: "Life without purpose is life without meaning, and life without meaning is life without hope."

    The reason it is good to consider the brevity of our lives is so that we may choose to have purpose and meaning, and to do something good with our lives.
    I would challenge your thinking if I may. What cause is there in knowing that your life will end? What meaning is there in a time frame? What indeed is time? Does it impact your life any more than a measurement of space?

    The man born without limbs has a point. Do not dwell on death, live instead by those things you value. Let those around when you die miss you and indeed give them something to miss. Perhaps that is the self serving point to life, to cause the maximum level of pain in those you leave behind.

    A rather cold answer to the analysis but an answer none the less.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #80
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitzy View Post
    death is annoying cuz you never know when its coming
    you never know HOW its coming
    and you dont know whether its gonna hurt or not
    The pain is life though not death. As OneWithSoul comments
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Death is when every problem resolves itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitzy View Post
    i dont have a problem with death
    but i do have a problem with time.
    im more afraid of time than death
    I'm with you there. Without time, death would mean little as it would be that without death time would mean little.

    A strange relationship that we developed time ourselves. Perhaps we are a nihilistic species?
    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    Death is the end of you, and thus, the end of the universe.

    Kind of a big deal.
    Nah. If your home gets knocked down with you and yours in it then that's a big deal but to see it knocked down after you have removed all you had invested in it is just merely a footnote of interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Death is when every problem resolves itself.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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