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  1. #131
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    Difference is, when I go to sleep, I expect to wake up. Death is something which cannot be predicted as far as time, place, cause, etc. goes. When you sleep, you're still existing, still breathing.

    If there is nothing after death, then life really is a gift.
    I think the point is well underlined by Katsuni. At the point of losing consciousness you cease to exist to yourself to all intents and purposes. Why then do people fear death but not sleep?

    As for life being a gift, I fail to see why. Life is what it is, any attached value to it is both personal and transient.
    Quote Originally Posted by luminous beam View Post
    I always saw funerals as being pointless since the dead is no longer able to see or partake in any "celebration." But I suppose I understand such ritual to exist in order to offer the dead's family and friends some sort of time together to try and get closure.
    The thing that got me hardest was my mother's funeral. I kinda figured that as she was always very distressed if I was upset then it would be a bit of a slap in the face to get upset at her funeral... so I smiled... most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) I suppose the immediate reason for most people is that they think in terms of words rather than concepts, and the definition of hopelessness is "without hope." Philosophically, its because the only conceivable alternate state to having hope or not having hope is to exist completely in the moment without anticipation for future events and possibilities, a state of being which is contrary (except for brief periods) to civilization itself.
    A sound point and a good reason to try to get people off this quick fix defined world they've built.
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    2.) and 3.) The reason that organized religious doctrines are so popular is that there is no rational reason to believe in an afterlife or other supernatural concepts, leading to repeated doubts and overall lack of confidence concerning one's "faith" without the social and (most importantly) mental habituation that organized religion provides. To put it bluntly, religion enables people to brainwash themselves into believing what they need to believe in order to enjoy life without the fear of death which led them to embrace some "faith" in supernatural concepts in the first place. In short, for most believers religion/faith is a means of overcoming preoccupation with the fear of death, rather than the cause of it. In the interest of utilitarianism (if not necessarily the hedonistic preferences of the minority of people who seem to be happier without religious beliefs), it would be better to reform organized religion (which for the most part has already taken place in developed Christian and Buddhist countries) rather than attempt to purge it from society.

    Edit: in case there is any misunderstanding, my use of the word "hedonism" is meant solely to distinguish between personal utility and aggregate utility, not as an endorsement of any particular concept of morality.
    I think you're a little harsh on religion (okay so now I feel like a hypocrite), it's not the organised rules that is the reason to keep such institutions but rather the sense of community. Some may criticise their rules and say that they are confrontational and exclusive but I've yet to see a group who could not be charged with such.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    Good analysis, but are you purposely saying 'yeu' for 'you' ??
    I second that totally. Yew, I could have understood but yeu are just confusing!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

    I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

    I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

    What's the problem with that?
    The problem is not being conscious. Of not having awareness. Of losing for eternity that which is "you". It is about all of this amazing journey that is life ending. Nothing. For eternity. People hope for ultimate understanding after death, for consciousness to continue in some form. On a basic level it is the fear of the unknown. Fear.
    I have accepted the fact it will happen so I go about my business as usual. I mean things will happen, but certainly I will die. Who knows what will happen afterwards...I find this hard to grapple with it times. Think about it like this. From the moment you are born you are dying. You were born to die. It is the biggest event in life...the end. Ah! The beautiful paradox/duality that is life and everything.

    Myself, I am spiritual in the sense of trying to attain as much understanding of life as it is for me in my space in reality. This satisfies me and I will continue to search. I personally think the purpose for life is simply to understand and be at peace with that understanding. Look to the Major Arcana's symbolism in the Tarot. These cards were not made for divinatory uses by charlatans. They are more of a meditative tool using symbolism to help you understand life's journey. You start off the Fool, the number 0, (which represents the egg, all things come from it) You have a fall from grace (all major religions have this primordial fall) and spend your life (or lives) journey of attaining ultimate understanding, number 21, The World. All of the 22 cards are steps on this journey. Which brings you full circle. You can live with the attitude of the Fool (carefree, embracing all of life) with the knowledge of The World(complete understand and acceptance of everything). So you are neither a Fool or a slave to your Knowledge. You are whole.

    a picture of all the cards in order:

    http://z.hubpages.com/u/249397_f496.jpg

    In the end if my dedication to spiritual enlightenment pays off, great, bring on hyperconsciouness! If I'm deluded about this and searching in vain...I'm dead so I will not know the difference.

  3. #133
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    The problem is not being conscious. Of not having awareness. Of losing for eternity that which is "you". It is about all of this amazing journey that is life ending. Nothing. For eternity. People hope for ultimate understanding after death, for consciousness to continue in some form. On a basic level it is the fear of the unknown. Fear.
    I have accepted the fact it will happen so I go about my business as usual. I mean things will happen, but certainly I will die. Who knows what will happen afterwards...I find this hard to grapple with it times. Think about it like this. From the moment you are born you are dying. You were born to die. It is the biggest event in life...the end. Ah! The beautiful paradox/duality that is life and everything.

    Myself, I am spiritual in the sense of trying to attain as much understanding of life as it is for me in my space in reality. This satisfies me and I will continue to search. I personally think the purpose for life is simply to understand and be at peace with that understanding. Look to the Major Arcana's symbolism in the Tarot. These cards were not made for divinatory uses by charlatans. They are more of a meditative tool using symbolism to help you understand life's journey. You start off the Fool, the number 0, (which represents the egg, all things come from it) You have a fall from grace (all major religions have this primordial fall) and spend your life (or lives) journey of attaining ultimate understanding, number 21, The World. All of the 22 cards are steps on this journey. Which brings you full circle. You can live with the attitude of the Fool (carefree, embracing all of life) with the knowledge of The World(complete understand and acceptance of everything). So you are neither a Fool or a slave to your Knowledge. You are whole.

    a picture of all the cards in order:

    http://z.hubpages.com/u/249397_f496.jpg

    In the end if my dedication to spiritual enlightenment pays off, great, bring on hyperconsciouness! If I'm deluded about this and searching in vain...I'm dead so I will not know the difference.
    So to pollute your continuing journey towards objective truth (odd that an F is going hell for leather for that... you'd do well with INTPs ) with a continuous fear of the end and of what happens next is unnecessary and undesirable no?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #134
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.
    How can you be sure that nothing happens?

    I mean, we don't know, so anything can basically happen.

    There are lots of stories what could happen, the heaven and hell, rebirth, who knows what?

    So, we can also ask the question: What if something happens at the same time than we ask the question what if nothing happens?

  5. #135
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    How can you be sure that nothing happens?

    I mean, we don't know, so anything can basically happen.

    There are lots of stories what could happen, the heaven and hell, rebirth, who knows what?

    So, we can also ask the question: What if something happens at the same time than we ask the question what if nothing happens?
    The real issue is, why is what happens afterwards so important to what happens before?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #136
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The real issue is, why is what happens afterwards so important to what happens before?
    It isn't... unless there IS a God... and He is who He says He is.

  7. #137
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It isn't... unless there IS a God... and He is who He says He is.
    Sorry I have to take the agnostic point of view here. If you require someone to threaten you with pain and torment to be nice then are you not just playing?

    If someone gives me one hundred pounds then I will judge them to be generous (if I were the kind of person to put full stops in sentences).
    If someone gives me one hundred pounds whilst I am holding a loaded gun to their head, I would probably not think them generous despite their kind donation.

    I don't see religion as a defence against being accused for lingering on what happens next. Even if He is who He is supposed to be it doesn't mean He conforms to the rules mandated by some mortal church. If He is all powerful then He does not need anyone's permission to change the rules. Similarly He is perfectly entitled to cease bothering with afterlifes and such. I think everyone is entitled to wake up some days and think "stuff it, I can't be bothered with work today".

    Seriously though, I tend to find that those who DO believe in there being something more than a sudden stop to be even more concerned with eeking out every second of their existence in a constant state of paranoia about what happens next. The only one's who don't seem to be skydivers and urban freestylers...
    Bob "This is fun"
    Stu "What happens if you hit the ground Bob?"
    Bob "I stop having fun"
    Stu "Doesn't that worry you?"
    Bob "Nope. Either way I ain't gonna be bored!!!"
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    So to pollute your continuing journey towards objective truth (odd that an F is going hell for leather for that... you'd do well with INTPs ) with a continuous fear of the end and of what happens next is unnecessary and undesirable no?
    Exactly. I am being honest with my self that my whole goal here in my individual space of time was to come to understand (in all ways: scientifically,anthropologically, psychologically, spiritually, artistically, phliosophically...etc) and be at peace with it all. Purely individual. That fear is silly, it's going to happen so obviously make the most out of what gives you satisfaction. Knowledge/understanding is equivalent to water for me. Sometimes I get frustrated when this isn't other people's goals (S types, sorry)... it's the only thing that makes sense!

    Funny you should mention INTPs...for the longest time I thought I was an INTP because out of all the Myers Briggs types besides INFJ, I indetify with INTPs the most. I think it's because my functions are NiTiFe=FiNe etc... I feel very deeply and emotions are tied into most things I do, but the Ti always takes precedence the majority of the time. I am very good with people insofar as understanding/relating and being amiable. I am also quite concerned with the state of world as it relates to humanity and it greatly affects me at times. When I use my Fe it's more in regards to how I construct my world view, kind of a means to an end. I am not really sure if it makes sense to be between INTP and INFJ... aah it's all so confusing...

  9. #139
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

    I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

    I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

    What's the problem with that?
    I read this book a while ago. It was in the local library.
    The author had a typical Swedish name, Johansson or Johansen or something.
    It was a biography.
    I like biographies, especially when they are written by intelligent autists.

    It was about her childhood in a big farm, and her school years.
    It was actually a priesthouse, with a garden and adjacent lands.
    That is the way of the Swedish priesthouses, they are big farms. Lots and lots of land.

    Her father was not a priest, he was not a religious man at all. He had rented the farm.
    There was a host of farm hands.
    They hated her of course, but they could not bully her much, because her father was the boss.

    She told in her book what happens after dying.
    It was all clear to her, most of the time she was out of her body anyway.
    I can understand that, her being an autist and all. It is not exactly a paradise situation on earth.
    The other people can get quite nasty, you know.

    When people die there is the funeral. The people are all weepy and in grey or black and they flock around the coffin.
    She said the dead do not care about the coffin or the corpse or about the weeping grey flock. They have other company.

    Her description about the autist experience was true to the prick so she would have lied about the other things?

    What other things? The autist experience does not include any other things.
    That is exactly why they call it the autist experience in the first place.

    Does oneself survive death?
    How much more wrong it is possible to put a question?

    Does oneself survive life? That is the question.
    Apparently not.

  10. #140
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The real issue is, why is what happens afterwards so important to what happens before?
    Maybe because people are interested about the unknown?
    Maybe because they want some certainity that what happens when dying?
    Maybe because it's very difficult to accept that it is possible that this life is all we have and after it's gone there is no me anymore. I disappear?
    Maybe not knowing is the hardest part, whatever happens after, but still not knowing what that is if it's anything?

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