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  1. #91
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I quite agree, I had to attend my first wake as you American's have them recently. I was a bit confused as to what it was for, the body there in the casket and everyone going and having a look. As I said this wasn't helped by not knowing the person very well. I supposed some people expect to the see them one last time, even if it is merely their body. When my step dad died i was a bit upset when I saw his body lying in my parents bed. Pete was so obviously gone, the body so very lifeless, god it made me want to yell and cry (I didn't mum was still practically hysterical) but I didn' feel like I needed to see it at any point. Each to their own I guess.
    ...
    I never really understood the concept of seeing the dead body, but I think it does help some persons process the reality of the death. You can't continue in denial. It might aid in the grieving process.

    I know that I kept forgetting that my grandfather was dead because I was unable to attend his funeral. Strangely, I didn't have a problem with it again after my mom sent me a photo of him in his casket.

    I understand that it's weird for some people, but in our neck of the woods, that's how we do it.

  2. #92
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Because I decided that it was.
    You are not the first person I have heard to say something like that and I am trying to figure where the catch is.


    Well personally I find this an inaccurate interpretation of history, Columbus used calculations made thousands of years before he lived to attempt to sail around the earth, it's why he thought he had rediscovered china and India, all because the ancient Greeks couldn't agree, two camps, one had calculated the diameter of the earth accurate the other made it about 4000 miles to small (this is the group Columbus went with lol). Monks and the Church became the repositories of knowledge and thought. Aquinas was a monk and the first humanist; the first guy writing about appealing to peoples reason and using it to understand the world a pretty 18th century enlightenment Idea, odd that is found in a monk in the 13th century.... There is value in their endeavors, even if our current paradigm decides they were nothing but fools stumbling in the dark, funnily enough that is exactly how they viewed people who had existed in the paradigm that preceded them
    .

    This is true.
    But my point was that modern science made so much progress that entire picture has changed so much that the knowledge we have today turns goals of spiritality and spiritual pursuit into something that is pointless even if it is true.


    But I undersand your point of view.

  3. #93
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You are not the first person I have heard to say something like that and I am trying to figure where the catch is.

    ...
    Why don't you read the book for yourself and find out for yourself.
    It's relatively inexpensive these days.

  4. #94
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I am asking myself the same question.

  5. #95
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Well I of course incline to let you follow whichever path you choose. I'd merely remind you that the most comfortable is often not the best route for personal growth and leave it at that.
    Too true. Balanced, as always, with the thought that living behind a mask is also damaging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    Also you wrote about how how it is borrowing stress form the future to mourn?
    No. It is borrowing stress from the future to worry unduly about the end of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    However, I'm not saying death should dominate our lives, you are quite right one would do nothing in life out of fear of death.
    Precisely and entirely the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    When I die I will become merely what reminds of me in people's memories, that's a pretty big change from my point of view...
    A little hint for you m'dear... you already are partially in such a state. You are to me what you were and what you are. Moreso the former when there is lack of the latter within grasp.

    Anyhow I guess my quandry is that I don't understand how formulating thoughts on what may or may not happen after they are dead helps people at all with how they live. I do recognise that if you do believe that there is judgement after death then those 'rules' apply to life but don't see how such is so much different from knowing that after you have gone you live in memory and as such are likely to strive to create a specific impression to leave.

    You know, I'm not to sure what my question would be now... as always the subject expands and dead ends are found and so many new roads open...

    Still, do please continue.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #96
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Oh dear! That would be sacrilege! Forget I ever said a thing!
    Things you think of are brought to mind in the immediacy. By continually brining death into the present it could be said that you are seeking it, perhaps subconsciously, or revisiting pain, for what end I know not.

    It has been said that stress ages people faster. Surely then to consider death and to stress over it is doubly so?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #97
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    A little hint for you m'dear... you already are partially in such a state. You are to me what you were and what you are. Moreso the former when there is lack of the latter within grasp.
    Yes but I am also what I am to myself, and that ends at death, thus I become only what I am to you and others who remember me, so although that partially happens when I leave your side physically it is only partial but it is complete once I'm dead.

    Anyhow I guess my quandary is that I don't understand how formulating thoughts on what may or may not happen after they are dead helps people at all with how they live. I do recognise that if you do believe that there is judgement after death then those 'rules' apply to life but don't see how such is so much different from knowing that after you have gone you live in memory and as such are likely to strive to create a specific impression to leave.
    It appears that it does make a difference, even between denominations of the same faith, take a Calvinistic Christian, they believe in the sovereignty of god, and that those who are saved are done so by god's will, he choose them to be saved. The Armenianists think things are more to do with man free will and that man chooses to accept god's offer or not and thus has choice. The Calvinist will still go tell the people the good news, but the Armenianist will make him look like he is half-hearted. Like you said fear of judgment in the afterlife does make a change to how we behave now.

    Also even if you don't believe in judgment but just an afterlife still it effects people, remember the conversation in the lord of the rings between Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith? About what happens when you die and Pippin concludes "that doesn't sounds so bad"? IT meant they behaved differently, instead of running like mad to find someway out they were able to face the challenge ahead of them. Being J may help with all that though...

  8. #98
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    ...
    Also even if you don't believe in judgment but just an afterlife still it effects people, remember the conversation in the lord of the rings between Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith? About what happens when you die and Pippin concludes "that doesn't sounds so bad"? IT meant they behaved differently, instead of running like mad to find someway out they were able to face the challenge ahead of them. Being J may help with all that though...
    I've been thinking about that scene, too.
    Glad you brought it up.
    I am no good at convincing anyone about anything,
    so I don't have anything else to add.

    How are you doing anyway, Dom?
    I trust the newlyweds are happy and doing well?

  9. #99
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I trust the newlyweds are happy and doing well?

  10. #100
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I'm happy for you!

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