Unforgivable Sins

[INA]

If I were to apply that idea to myself I'd have to word it this way: It's easier to take up a weapon and kill someone than it is to go to the ego-battering work it takes to say, "I forgive you." and truly feel and mean it.

/end dramatics?

Wow. We have some cold-blooded killers in our midst.

 

[mlittrell]

It is not a given that anyone can pick up a weapon and kill. Forgiving on average requires considerably less effort. It is also hogwash to think that offenders simply needs to learn a lesson and justice is or should be for their benefit. For all the vaunted understanding of humanity that many profess to have it never ceases to amaze me that there is a drive to block out the less-than-fluffy aggressive (and yes, murderous) drives that make us human. I for one have no use for a neutered humanity.

lol i was talking about in the society that gandhi lived in so take it as a metaphor if you so choose.

EDIT:

I even wrote "in his case" in parenthesis

/end dramatics?

your talking to two XNFPs lol what do you expect haha

 

[INA]

lol i was talking about in the society that gandhi lived in so take it as a metaphor if you so choose.

EDIT:

I even wrote "in his case" in parenthesis

My bad. I thought you embraced the view as a truth.

your talking to two XNFPs lol what do you expect haha

What was I thinking. Pardon me.
*exits stage right*

 

[Anja]

mlittrel said it for me. I plead innocence for type. Can't help it.

I may add that with your present avatar you'd best not be slinging slurs about "dramatics!" Hee. Murder most foul and unforgiveable. Who's "dramatic?"

When anything upsets me/throws me out of healthy balance, the problem is within me.

 

[INA]

mlittrel said it for me. I plead innocence for type. Can't help it.

I may add that with your present avatar you'd best not be slinging slurs about "dramatics! Hee. Murder most foul and unforgiveable. Who's "dramatic?"

Touché, madam. Touché.

 

[Anja]

Sorry I cannot find the post to give it attribution but somebody here said something about forgiveness being a defense against, was it, grief?

I've been thinking about that for a couple of days. There are healthy defenses that everybody needs. But I think the idea of defending against grief, or any unpleasant and intense feeling, is counterproductive.

In my view the idea is to acknowledge and accept that you are carrying grief and then work through it in a manner which lightens or dispells it. (Grief, of course, being a recurring theme in all human life.)

The defenses just build a stronger and stronger wall which some day may break and deluge you with years of stored grief. Used to call it a "nervous breakdown," I think.

 

[disregard]

Forgiveness comes after the stages of grief, IME.

 

[Anja]

I think so too. Trying to remember the stages of succesfully working through grief.

1. Anger
2. Anger
3. Anger. . .

Ahem.

I think they're

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Did I get that right?

 

[disregard]

Forgiveness can be simply freeing yourself from the grip of resentment, anger, bitterness, fear, etc. (through the natural process of grieving) and choosing not to feel victimised, choosing to believe and really understand that it had more to do with the other person than you.

 

[Anja]

Bravo! You said that so well.

 

[INA]

Forgiveness can be simply freeing yourself from the grip of resentment, anger, bitterness, fear, etc. (through the natural process of grieving) and choosing not to feel victimised, choosing to believe and really understand that it had more to do with the other person than you.

Can't you do all that without forgiving? Are we redefining forgiveness? I mean, I can really understand and believe something a shithead does is about their deficiencies as a human being without forgiving the shithead.

 

[Anja]

You can, I think. That's using mind to deal with feelings and is an option. The question remains whether one can let go of the resentment. That I doubt. In that case rationalization would be an unhealthy defense against grief.

The key lies in acceptance of it and that's something we resist as humans. It makes us feel powerless, as Uber pointed out.

 

[INA]

You can, I think. That's using mind to deal with feelings and is an option. The question remains whether one can let go of the resentment. That I doubt. In that case rationalization would be an unhealthy defense against grief.

The key lies in acceptance of it and that's something we resist as humans. It makes us feel powerless, as Uber pointed out.

We speak completely different languages, i.e. I prefer not to stipulate that a coping mechanism is "unhealthy rationalization" if it works for whoever does it. Further, I don't see how that is a rationalization. You accept that the person is a bottom-feeder whom you henceforth don't give 2 shits about because they have problems they need to work out and you move on. Nothing powerless in that.
I have forgiven people before and found nothing particularly empowering in it.

 

[disregard]

Premature acceptance (pseudo acceptance) can make you feel powerless.

For example, if your boyfriend dumps you, and you try to "accept" it before you go through the stages of grief, you will be accepting something that is very infused with your current feelings. That can make you feel powerless, in that you haven't yet put everything into perspective and approached the matter in a more disinterested manner.

I do not think that acceptance makes you feel powerless. Acceptance comes from understanding; knowledge is power.

That is why forgiveness is so empowering!

 

[Anja]

Premature acceptance (pseudo acceptance) can make you feel powerless.

I do not think that (adds the word "true" here)acceptance makes you feel powerless.

There it is, from my perspective!

 

[disregard]

Perhaps I should just use the word "acceptance" instead of forgiveness.

So you were right

Can't you do all that without forgiving? Are we redefining forgiveness? I mean, I can really understand and believe something a shithead does is about their deficiencies as a human being without forgiving the shithead.

 

[Anja]

Ah. Dunno. But I certainly appreciate having a Tee come along and clarify things.

 

[INA]

YouTube - Monty Python - Argument Clinic
*pokes you*

 

[Anja]

OW! No! No! No!

Stoppit!

No sarcasm intended. I did feel that disregard helped clarify for me.

Yes, indeed, we DO speak two different languages.

"Is this abuse? I paid for an argument.":steam:

 

[INA]

Argue MOAR for my clarification. It still sounds all fuzzy to me. And disregard speaks the F tongue so no wonder you agree with each other.