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  1. #61
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Stabbing me in the back is pretty unforgivable.

    Even if whoever stabbed me in the back is truly sorry for what he/she has done, I can have fun keeping them in emotional turmoil by continuing to deny forgiveness. Or I could perhaps pretend I've forgiven the perpetrator to make him/her feel secure, and then I would go behind the sidelines and create schemes to humiliate that person.

    There is nothing more painful than emotional torture.
    Actually, that's the people at the center of Dante's Hell. Betrayers (and more specifically betrayers to their benefactors).
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalMethod View Post
    Actually, that's the people at the center of Dante's Hell. Betrayers (and more specifically betrayers to their benefactors).
    Indeed it is. I love Dante's Inferno.

    But I don't like Dante's Divine Comedy -- it just wasn't that funny.

  3. #63
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I see forgiveness as the unwillingness to become like your violator. Hate makes us reflect back the same characteristics. There is no deeper violation than to become one's violator. There is a type of forgiveness for the worst offenses that does not embrace with naivete', but let's go of hate and the power the violator held over you. This does not require replacing the hate with trust. Forgiveness can be offered as a gift, but trust must be earned. For me, forgiving the worst offenses is letting go of a desire to return the hurt and the sense of desiring their punishment, but at the same time to hold onto a reasoned self-protection based in distrust of the violator, especially if they do not even desire forgiveness. This also protects the violator from more deeply instilling their own cruelty. I won't allow them to destroy myself or their own heart further. It's one thing to forgive a friend who hurts your feelings, quite another to reconcile a compassionate reaction to someone who murdered your loved one.

    There is a wise saying, "we cannot hate what we understand". In facing the worst violators it became apparent to me that this statement does not imply excusing behaviors, but that when we understand the deepest forms of hate, we know to run and to not let it grow inside ourselves, but to hone a gentle defiance to be unlike our violator. A second aspect of this saying develops an underlying respect for others. We have not lived any other life, and do not know first hand how the genetic and environmental influences of another person's life would have shaped us. Because of this, there is a fundamental doubt in every scenario that self is in fact superior to its violator in any way. There is no way to verify how oneself would be in another person's life, and for that reason, it makes sense to have a baseline respect regardless of that person's behavior. This means being non-judgmental at one's core. This is the only way I can understand compassion. It must apply to some level in every scenario or it isn't compassion. This doesn't interfere with a reasoned way of limiting trust. Just because I am potentially no better than any other person does not mean I would be trustworthy had I lived their life. So any conclusive judgment on another person is withheld, trust is reasoned and tested over time, compassion is offered freely and as a gift.
    I agree completely! What a superb post, toonia.

  4. #64
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    Then again, some of our minds have been poisoned by classic literature.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    There is nothing more painful than emotional torture.
    Then the question is whose? Yours or his? Two people feeling miserable?

    Spread it around. We'll all be happier for that.

    You could even kick your dog a little bit just to be fair.

    Get me?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    I hate things that I understand, in fact understanding something is quintessential in hating it. Just because I understand something doesn't somehow make me some lovey saucer eyed SF. Destroying what you hate, or torturing what you hate is one of the most satisfying things, it is the ultimate satisfaction of conviction. Hated something is part of identity, if you do not hate anything, then you cannot truly love something. Without war you cannot know what peace is.
    This world is mine - in time.

  7. #67
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    if you do not hate anything, then you cannot truly love something.
    But hatred is not the opposite of love; hatred comes from love. Indifference is much more powerful than hatred. Indifference starves while hatred feeds, and that which feeds is reduced of its own power (except with love).

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    But hatred is not the opposite of love; hatred comes from love. Indifference is much more powerful than hatred. Indifference starves while hatred feeds, and that which feeds is reduced of its own power (except with love).
    I was going to say something about neurotransmitters, but it looks as if disregard has taken care of the NT perspective.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Then the question is whose? Yours or his? Two people feeling miserable?

    Spread it around. We'll all be happier for that.

    You could even kick your dog a little bit just to be fair.

    Get me?
    I would never kick my dog. She never did anything to me. And I detest animal cruelty.

    EDIT: Animal cruelty is another unforgivable sin.

  10. #70
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    if you do not hate anything, then you cannot truly love something. Without war you cannot know what peace is.
    Just as peace is the absence of war and darkness is the absence of light, indifference is the absence of love.

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