User Tag List

First 21011121314 Last

Results 111 to 120 of 205

  1. #111
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    There is something akin to a type of soul murder to forgive when the time is not ripe and forgiveness is not warranted.

  2. #112
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    you can forgive yet still punish. if you punish and dont forgive its punishment just to get back at someone, not for their own good. if you forgive then punish, it seems to be more for their own good. there aren't any hard feelings i suppose you could say.
    Like if someone lies to me and rejects me then later has a change of heart, I might believe that this person actually did change his heart, but it still doesn't change the fact that s(he) was the cause of my pain and suffering. Hence, I will only make him/her think s(he) is secure and in my good graces again. To me, that is the best way to plot my revenge -- when one least expects it. Perhaps I could be so destructive that it could lead that person to become suicidal.
    does this really make you feel better? does it do any good at all? just curious. this way of thinking fascinates me.

    That accomplishes more than forgiveness. Forgiveness turns you into a doormat.
    I beg to differ.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  3. #113
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    11,925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    you can forgive yet still punish. if you punish and dont forgive its punishment just to get back at someone, not for their own good. if you forgive then punish, it seems to be more for their own good. there aren't any hard feelings i suppose you could say.
    How is punishment for one's own good?

    Anyway, I'm not concerned for a person's own good. I'm concerned with watching them suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    does this really make you feel better? does it do any good at all? just curious. this way of thinking fascinates me.
    As I may have mentioned here, as well, it brings closure, and it's a logical response.

    If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?

    Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it. And then watching that person suffer is a gratifying release for me. If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.

    Forgiveness doesn't make one feel better either. How can it? It doesn't bring back that which was lost.

  4. #114
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    How is punishment for one's own good?
    So you learn to not do it again lol. Basic parenting skills.
    If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?
    No.
    Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it.
    Instead of taking it like a man.
    If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.
    Nice way to create enemies.
    It doesn't bring back that which was lost.
    And neither does revenge. So why take away. Then everybody ends up with less of what they once had and more anger and hatred for each other in return.

    Revenge reminds me of kindergarteners that don't know how to handle their emotion so they just beat up the kid that hurt their feelings because they haven't grown up enough to know how to deal with such matters.

    EDIT:

    It's just hard for me to understand. I forgive and that makes me feel better and I don't feel like a floor mat. In fact, this attribute has gotten me places in life. It has never hurt me or done anything negative for that matter. That is why it is so interesting hearing your side of it.

    EDIT2:

    Agreed with comment below. Believe what you may, just please don't have kids lol.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  5. #115
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    How is punishment for one's own good?

    Anyway, I'm not concerned for a person's own good. I'm concerned with watching them suffer.



    As I may have mentioned here, as well, it brings closure, and it's a logical response.

    If you push me, I push back. Are you following me?

    Through revenge, you let loose the pain inside of you and give it back to the one who caused it. And then watching that person suffer is a gratifying release for me. If someone destroys something of mine, I can't get it back, so the only other alternative is to take something from the other person that will make him/her suffer, too.

    Forgiveness doesn't make one feel better either. How can it? It doesn't bring back that which was lost.
    Don't have kids please.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  6. #116
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    11,925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    Nice way to create enemies.
    Haven't you been reading anything I have written?

    I would be made into the enemy when the other person pissed me off.

    As far as I'm concerned, the other person is the one who made enemies.

  7. #117
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    if that's the way you want to view things then by all means go for it, but there is no reason to make someone an enemy just because they "pissed you off". they might not have even meant to do so in a malicious manner and they might be perfectly good people but now they are your enemy. this way of thinking seems to be a defense mechanism of sorts that I see from ENTJs quite a bit. my one ENTJ friend was made fun of a lot when he was younger, so now if he gets an ounce of ridicule it hurts him, even if it wasn't directed at him, and he just "hates" the person from then on and they are his enemies. it really just stems from his lack of knowing how to deal with his emotions so he just deals with it on a level he understands, by hating people. recently he has noticed this and is a lot happier now that he learned to forgive people and generally not take things too personally. life's too short to go around pissed off at people and having enemies.
    Haven't you been reading anything I have written?
    Yes lol. I can read.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  8. #118
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,478

    Default

    This is a difficult topic for me, I've been thinking about it for a while now. There are a number of things that I've experienced that I cannot forgive. (I'm not talking about the less severe end of things, such as a friend who hurts your feelings, but more along the lines of crimes that tend to have lengthy jail sentences attached to them)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think that idea of forgiveness being more for the one doing the forgiving than for the one who committed it is to free one from carrying resentment, rage, all the baggage that goes with not forgiving. That stuff can poison the one who carries it. In that sense then the person "has" you for life, not just one single act.
    That's something to aim for, sure, and something I'm working on but IMO getting in touch with the rage/outrage is a necessary step for healing. Not to have your life consumed by it, but more as part of the grieving/healing process and moving on from it.

    However, that process is not how I define forgiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    But this idea of deciding who and what gets forgiven is foreign to me. If I am not the one hurt I don't know how I can decide what's forgivable and what isn't.

    It feels like playing God to me. It's really a personal matter.
    Yes. I feel angry when someone implies that I should forgive those who committed those criminal acts against me. It's MY choice whether I choose to forgive or not, and on MY timetable, not theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    And to those that couldn't understand forgiveness, To forgive is not to condone. It's a form of understanding, acceptance, breadth of mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Yeah, I see it as saying "I'm not going to allow what you did to affect me anymore, I'm shedding it."
    Again, that's not my definition of forgiveness. My personal definition of forgiveness is that it can only be experienced if the person who committed the wrong to be fully accountable for what they did (even if it was done while mentally ill or intoxicated) and to face up to what they did and be remorseful, and to make amends as best they can, and work hard at changing so that the wrong will never be committed again.

    My partner and I fully live this process in our lives. We have emotionally hurt each other quite badly in the past and this process has allowed us to truly forgive the other for past actions. However, if we hadn't done this at a deep level, I suspect forgiveness would not have been possible and it's likely we would not have stayed together.

    I don't think this process would work for me, though, in terms of forgiving the criminal acts against me (some of which occurred when I was very young). I have left the door open for one of the perpetrators to follow this process but I know it is highly unlikely they will ever do this (I no longer have anything to do with this person, but any future contact is contingent on them taking full responsibility for what they did). Two of the others are long dead (cancer and heart attack) and the other is someone who I do not want in my life at all, ever.

    For something relatively minor such as a friend inadvertently hurting your feelings, this process is not necessarily essential - I think it is possible to work through the hurt by yourself and choose how you will deal with that, such as continuing the friendship but reducing the trust and openness you put into that friendship for a while then reassessing.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I agree that feeling truth is more important than feeling forgiveness. If one has not come to true forgiveness than it is better to be inwardly honest than to force something that the time is not right for. Forgiveness cannot be forced. Truth is more important.

    Hurt is often so damaging not because we carry it around, but because we carry it around and don't process it and only feel the tip of the thorn, the rest inside and festering. It is more important I think to examine the why, how much, how deep what caused it of hurt than forcing forgiveness just for the sake of forgiveness. Forgiveness may be a end result of the process of tracing down hurt and seeing it as it truly is or it may not.
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    There is something akin to a type of soul murder to forgive when the time is not ripe and forgiveness is not warranted.
    These two posts are how I see forgiveness as well.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  9. #119
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3,198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    lol i figured that quote would piss some people off. he might be dead but he did a crapload for india and didn't raise a single fist/weapon.
    Yes, but what does that have to do with the truth or falsity of his statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    like it or not, anything can be forgiven. that doesn't mean not punish though.
    Says who? Maybe all is forgivable for you; maybe not for some others.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    but there is no reason to make someone an enemy just because they "pissed you off".
    As long as the person finds utility in it, there is a reason, whether or not your morality approves it as a good one.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  10. #120
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    oh im aware. im just being annoyingly idealistic. i just dont see the point in revenge. it seems to lend to someone not knowing how to deal with things. now, i do believe in justice. but on a more interpersonal level i dont understand revenge.

    im aware that it is different from person to person. this is just an opinion
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

Similar Threads

  1. Seven Deadly Sin Quiz
    By Kiddo in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 04-05-2010, 02:53 PM
  2. The New Seven Deadly Sins- Courtesy of the Pope - do you agree and what is your list?
    By Geoff in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 12-16-2008, 03:47 PM
  3. [NF] Misery of Idealism? Hypersensitivity to Sin
    By KLessard in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 07-04-2008, 04:07 PM
  4. Can a soul that's created anew carry the 'Adamic sin'?
    By LIND in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 07-03-2008, 11:08 AM
  5. Seven NEW Deadly Sins?!?
    By miss fortune in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 05-03-2008, 07:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO