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Why do you think some people have no morals or conscience?

theflame

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I'm intrigued by people who know they're doing wrong things but they keep doing it over and over and they never learn their lessons.
Do you think there's a chemical imbalance to their brains as to why they have no guilt for what they do to others? They lack empathy as well and are manipulative.

Why do some people not have any guilt for what they do -- or do they really think what they did to people was justified when it actually isn't? That's the only reason I could think of.

They know the difference between right and wrong, but they still choose to do the same bad things over and over.
 

theflame

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Is their punishment from the other place not enough? Seems like people will never really learn from their actions unless they lose something they thought they'd never lose.
 

Shiver

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Positive reinforcement is generally more effective than punishment. If a person is feeling rewarded for their actions and the punishment isn't sufficient to outweigh the gain (real or perceived), it's not surprising that behavior will persist.
 

Red Ribbon

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I'd suppose most people do bad things because they find some pleasure in it. The reward outweighs the punishment. Like a serial killer kills because he enjoys doing it and the prospect of being put in prison or being given the death penalty don't scare them.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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One theory on how the various attachment and personalty disorders occur is that the natural process of development during infancy and toddlerhood is arrested. During infancy --> toddlerhood we begin our sense of reality with only a sense of self. Everything, including one's mother, is simply an extension of that awareness of self, but there is no comprehension that others exist independently of our comprehension and needs. During healthy development there is a gradual process where the infant begins to comprehend that their mother is a separate being with an independent set of needs. This is why very young children will cry for attention even if the mother is sick, in the shower, busy cooking food, etc. The early mind cannot comprehend reality from a second viewpoint.

Even young children in the pre-operational stage of development cannot view the world from another perspective. They have done tests placing young children around a table with various shaped objects in the center of the table. When the child is asked to draw the objects as they would appear from another child's perspective, they cannot do it. This is also seen if a young child nods 'yes' while talking to grandma on the phone. They cannot process that grandma cannot see them.

During healthy development, children can go through the process of learning empathy, which can include projecting their own feelings onto their stuffed animals and other people. Gradually, they develop theory of mind in which they can comprehend what another person is experiencing and feeling even when this is different from their own experience.

When an individual's development is arrested psychologically and emotionally at these young stages, they still grow into an adult who is capable of abstract thought, long-term planning, and complex calculations, but still incapable of affective empathy. They cannot feel from the perspective of others. Some do develop a type of theory of mind (although I suspect it is constructed differently than the healthy version) in which they can be skilled at predicting behaviors and vulnerabilities in others without having any shared, affective empathy for others.

So these people experience the world much as you or I would experience living in a holographic simulation of reality. Nothing besides the self is real. Nothing besides the self matters. Everything exists to be manipulated and used to satisfy the impulses of "mine! mine! no! no!". The toddler level of emotional processing is combined with abstract thinking of adulthood. Harm done is not experienced as regret because the effect it had on others does not matter and isn't comprehended as 'real'.
 

Pionart

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I know that smoking is wrong but I keep doing it. Yeah, that one's literally a chemical imbalance i.e. nicotine addiction.
 

Lark

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I'm intrigued by people who know they're doing wrong things but they keep doing it over and over and they never learn their lessons.
Do you think there's a chemical imbalance to their brains as to why they have no guilt for what they do to others? They lack empathy as well and are manipulative.

Why do some people not have any guilt for what they do -- or do they really think what they did to people was justified when it actually isn't? That's the only reason I could think of.

They know the difference between right and wrong, but they still choose to do the same bad things over and over.

A psychopath or a sociopath will concern themselves only with will they be caught as opposed to right or wrong or any inhibiitons of conscience.

A narcissist just thinks that their own decisions are the only ones which count, it can appear like they have big self-aggrandising thoughts and self-importance but most of the best reading I've done on it and most of my direct experience with people who fit that bill is that they are highly deployed against self-doubt, like if they admit for a second to how they truly feel it'd be fatal to them so they wont, anything that hints at it will provoke a severe reaction, so if they are responsible for wrong doing and it becomes plain they're liable to get involved in more and more of it, to try and confirm their own thinking about things, rationalise it all, or at least challenge the alternative or counter narrative.

Sadists and masochists have their own reasons.

Besides the pathological types most everyone engages in rationalisation after the fact, mankind is more rationalising than reasoning, so powerful affects and emotions determine decision making and those are shaped by things like attachment style, resilience to stress, trauma, pain based behaviours, cultural pressures, stuff like that, which can lead to repeatedly doing the wrong thing.

When it comes to learning lessons, there's nothing to say that learning follows on experience at all, sometimes it does and sometimes it appears not to because no two people are liable to perceive the exact same situation the exact same way and therefore take the exact same learning from it, if that makes sense.
 

Lark

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Is their punishment from the other place not enough? Seems like people will never really learn from their actions unless they lose something they thought they'd never lose.

I've read, and witnessed, a later and later maturational process, when I read books about the unimaginable feats people were involved in long ago at much younger ages, its amazing, these days people seem to mature around their early or mid twenties, later still, maybe its to do with the increased longevity in the developed world but, anyway, a big part of maturation is consequential thinking and an appreciation of natural and logical consequences, less exercise of confirmation bias that sort of thing.
 

Lark

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Positive reinforcement is generally more effective than punishment. If a person is feeling rewarded for their actions and the punishment isn't sufficient to outweigh the gain (real or perceived), it's not surprising that behavior will persist.

The one truly sinister narcissistic offender I've encountered, for sure that is, was pretty clear that the only motivating factor for them in their criminal decisions was that "they could".

It was pretty clear to me that they were capable of providing all the positive reinforcement they'd need to get through their day themselves, they positively reveled in a lot of sick behaviour, what everyone else, anyone else actually, would have thought was sick.

The thing about evil though, its less than human not super human, a lot of people make mistakes about that. Including the sorts of small minded narcissism which results in people becoming criminally deviant.
 

Lark

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I'd suppose most people do bad things because they find some pleasure in it. The reward outweighs the punishment. Like a serial killer kills because he enjoys doing it and the prospect of being put in prison or being given the death penalty don't scare them.

A lot of the time is compulsive and implusive behaviour, even when its performed with maximum deviousness and deceit in order to let them carry on acting that way for as long as they can, they can do anything but stop it pretty much, which ultimately is what makes them weak ass bitches.
 

theflame

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As long as they know there's something wrong with them so they have no room to be talking about other people, but they still think they have the rights to judge others knowing they have no sense of right or wrong. I don't usually waste time with people like that, but when they follow me around all the time getting all nosy in my business sometimes they need to be put in their places.
 

kotoshinohaisha

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They don't have Fe or Fi. Or it's their inferior function ;)

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kotoshinohaisha

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Study cognitive functions. It's just the way they perceive and process things.

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Kanra Jest

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I question if there truly is a right and wrong. That insinuates there's some universal rightness or wrongness in the world by which all things must be judged. If anything, I'd say I have more a sense of honor based off fairness and strength.

As for why some don't. Maybe they know this, but don't care about fairness and strength as that part is missing in say ... psychopaths... so they end up only having self benefit to guide them and kill their boredom.
 

Yama

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I don't think anyone sees themselves as "the bad guy." It's interesting how a society chooses its morals to begin with.
 

Lark

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I question if there truly is a right and wrong. That insinuates there's some universal rightness or wrongness in the world by which all things must be judged. If anything, I'd say I have more a sense of honor based off fairness and strength.

As for why some don't. Maybe they know this, but don't care about fairness and strength as that part is missing in say ... psychopaths... so they end up only having self benefit to guide them and kill their boredom.

So you have a sense of right (I differ seriously on the criteria you choose but anyway) and you dont believe it is universal or should be? So is it just how you make decisions and how did you arrive at it? I'd be interested because I'm willing to bet you own a debt to family/household culture and tradition, neighbourhood/community culture and tradition, etc. etc. etc. because no one speaks a language they just made up themselves, it'd be pointless, the fact that you speak a language invented by someone else, a long time ago, alone is a pretty good evidence that dismissing universal innate learning is mistaken.

When I hear anyone talk about relativism like this I figure if they really do live a life on that basis or just talk that way, practically if you didnt choose to observe the universal social norms you'd be in prison or the asylum pretty quickly.
 

Lark

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I don't think anyone sees themselves as "the bad guy." It's interesting how a society chooses its morals to begin with.

Well that's true, denying the victim or otherwise justifying the behaviour on a "me, me, what about me?" basis is common among criminals, its how they give themselves permission to harm others without any attack of conscience to stop them if no one else intervenes to stop them.

I dont buy the idea that society is at fault of the evils of individuals at all.
 

Yama

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Well that's true, denying the victim or otherwise justifying the behaviour on a "me, me, what about me?" basis is common among criminals, its how they give themselves permission to harm others without any attack of conscience to stop them if no one else intervenes to stop them.

I dont buy the idea that society is at fault of the evils of individuals at all.

I didn't say society was at fault. I said I think it's interesting how we as a society have come to decide that some things are good and some are bad.
 

Kanra Jest

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So you have a sense of right (I differ seriously on the criteria you choose but anyway) and you dont believe it is universal or should be? So is it just how you make decisions and how did you arrive at it? I'd be interested because I'm willing to bet you own a debt to family/household culture and tradition, neighbourhood/community culture and tradition, etc. etc. etc. because no one speaks a language they just made up themselves, it'd be pointless, the fact that you speak a language invented by someone else, a long time ago, alone is a pretty good evidence that dismissing universal innate learning is mistaken.

When I hear anyone talk about relativism like this I figure if they really do live a life on that basis or just talk that way, practically if you didnt choose to observe the universal social norms you'd be in prison or the asylum pretty quickly.

I don't believe it is universal. Everything is what we make of it. We are what we make of ourselves. Doesn't mean I don't find it valuable to have principles to live by. Honor to guide oneself. I believe strongly in it's utility to advance us as a species, and it may be the one thing that separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet.

I obey society as necessary obviously, otherwise I might as well be in such. That'd be stupid... We need to not only survive but function in the system we exist in. Order and such. Not just do whatever with no limitations. Believing is one thing, acting on it is another thing.
 

Lark

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I don't believe it is universal. Everything is what we make of it. We are what we make of ourselves. Doesn't mean I don't find it valuable to have principles to live by. Honor to guide oneself. I believe strongly in it's utility to advance us as a species, and it may be the one thing that separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet.

I obey society as necessary obviously, otherwise I might as well be in such. That'd be stupid... We need to not only survive but function in the system we exist in. Order and such. Not just do whatever with no limitations. Believing is one thing, acting on it is another thing.

You dont believe in the universal? Really? How do you use prescription medicine which has been developed on that basis? Do you travel by cars or other means of transport which are more or less generic to human beings or are you working on your own personal hover craft or something?
 
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