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  1. #41
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    It still makes no sense either way, as I explained earlier in this thread in post #18.

    And your idea is flawed for this reason: The Universe will Die in future, Heat death from an expanding Universe has huge implications against the existence of heaven.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    You do not understand that Neptune does exist, something doesnt exist because you believe or feel it to be so. It exist because everyone following the same pattern as you can find it touch it taste etc to infinitum. Neptune exists because anyperson can use the laws of science to view neptune, as many astrologers have. Defending heaven with relentless what ifs is irelevant. When there are two answers, and no proof that it does or doesnt exist, then the simpler answer is to be observed until proof to the contrary can be found. The simple answer is heaven is fictional.
    This world is mine - in time.

  3. #43
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    As far as our life here, it would depend on if you believe that God takes an active part in the goings on in the world, or if He sits back and watches as the world burns.
    Honestly, I prefer that kind of God; I seriously wish I was a Deist.

  4. #44
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Would it?
    Is the notion of "free will" truly compatible with an omnipotent God?



    Unless, of course, you thought you were one of the people destined for hell.
    (I can't think of a worse anxiety in life, than to expect in the back of your mind on a daily basis to spend an eternity in torment upon death.)



    Would it actually mean that [if God exists]?

    And are we hurling towards oblivion [even if God doesn't exist]?



    If that's the case, you just have to game the system.

    And a God who actually lets people game the system isn't much of a God, is s/he?
    Remember, I'm positing a mostly Deistic sort of God. I think most Christians assume they are going to Heaven, either through their spiritual choice or because they are manifestly among the Elect (depending on their stance toward predestination). If an omnipotent God created humans so they would have free will, and refrained from directly interfering with that process through mind control, then I don't see any necessary contradiction between an omnipotent God and free-will. If it could be proven that we have eternal consciousness and free will, then I personally could take or leave a God, though others may prefer a more personal type of spirituality, as Toonia explained. A "God" framework, to me, is simply shorthand for metaphysical wants. Finally, I find the notion of there being a God but no eternal consciousness or free will to be just about the most depressing metaphysical reality that could exist.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 09-29-2008 at 04:15 AM. Reason: Had more to say.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    You do not understand that Neptune does exist
    I don't?

    Something doesnt exist because you believe or feel it to be so.
    No, but then neither does something exist because 'everyone following the same pattern can find, touch, or taste it.' If something exists, then it does so regardless of whether anyone can find, touch, or taste it, and even if nobody exists. According to your proposition, nothing existed until there was someone to find, touch or taste it, at which point its existence was caused. Now I do not believe that you actually hold such an opinion, because it would lead to quite absurd consequences, but it is also why I reject your claim.

    Besides, if heaven exists, then everyone has a common method of experiecing it, by a fate which will eventually come to us all.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    And your idea is flawed for this reason: The Universe will Die in future, Heat death from an expanding Universe has huge implications against the existence of heaven.
    Perhaps heaven will "die" with everything else, or perhaps what will "die" is not everything, and heaven will be spared.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    ... Considering God's track record in the Christian bible, I think I'd prefer Hell.
    When people say things like this, I have to laugh.

    I mean, honestly, I suppose you're just trying to say you "don't like the Christian God."
    Which is fine.
    I just laugh when people say they'd rather "be in hell."

    Have you ever been burned?
    Ever been tortured?
    Ever been dipped in molten lead?

    Going by the fundamentalist views of hell, well, an eternity of pain would be a pretty awful thing.

    I have enough trouble lasting a week or so where I have a canker sore in my mouth; now imagine your whole body being covered in canker sores, then being dunked in salt... and it only gets worse from there.

    I guarantee any of us would be begging for mercy and would be willing to "take our chances with God" rather than spending an eternity in Hell, if it's all about pain. When people are in pain, they'll do ANYTHING to get out of it after a long enough period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Remember, I'm positing a mostly Deistic sort of God. ...
    I think I was just pointing out that many of your comments seemed to contain assumptions, that's all, rather than following conclusively.

    (Sorry, my brain's a little fuzzy right now, I took what felt like about four gallons of novacaine to my face over lunch so the dentist could torture me... the creep!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
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    Dostoevsky, speaking through his character Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov, argued that without immortality (in other words, without God) there is no morality. That that in the natural, material world of the mortal being there is no motivation to love one's neighbor or to avoid harming or exploiting one's neighbor in the pursuit of self-gratification.

    (An assertion I disagree with.)

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Dostoevsky, speaking through his character Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov, argued that without immortality (in other words, without God) there is no morality. That that in the natural, material world of the mortal being there is no motivation to love one's neighbor or to avoid harming or exploiting one's neighbor in the pursuit of self-gratification.

    (An assertion I disagree with.)
    There might be morality without immortality, I suppose...

    ...but then does it matter at all over the long-term?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
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    Without immortality, moral deeds (such as in the name of liberty, equality, fraternity, etc) may certainly matter to the individual carrying them out if they are grounded in love for your fellow human being (which is satisfying in itself and does not require a reward) and not in goodness for the sake of being good.

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