And if he isnt risen...

[Lark]

This is something which I've spent a lot of time thinking about, I once asked in what was unfortunately a disrespectful manner which probably robbed what I was saying of any meaningfulness a Jesuit about it too, if they found "the bones of Christ" would there be any Christianity or any Christians?

Tolstoy in his Gospel in Brief, I think it was, said that the gospels decided for him how he ought to live and questions about an afterlife were mute to him really, it was how to live now that mattered rather than what comes next or questions about eternity, I have a lot of sympathy for that position, all the scare tactics of the various evangelists about eternity where or eternity when and stuff like that, none of it phases me, none of it resonates with me at all, I care not a jot about it, I hope that love conquers death and I can meet all my ancestors and family and friends and, importantly, my dogs and goldfish which have perished already but its not a decider of my faith.

The actual life and ministry of Jesus to me are so significant that if it were all he wrote then I think it'd be sufficient, his life, ministry and interpretation of jewish traditions, seeming negative theology but which did not deny or dismiss a supernatural dimension, all resonate strongly with me. I've read some fantastic literary takes on the tale, like Kahil Gibran's, which dont say a lot about an afterlife and resurrection.

What is your thinking, also could you say whether or not you a believer and whether or not the whole conquered death thing is that important or not to you.

 

[wool]

It has always been about eternal life.

The first lie satan told was "you will not surely die".

If Christ wasn't​ resurrected that would mean there is no hope for us, and Satan would claim victory.

 

[Lark]

It has always been about eternal life.

The first lie satan told was "you will not surely die".

If Christ wasn't​ resurrected that would mean there is no hope for us, and Satan would claim victory.

Hmm, I understand the idea that in Eden everyone was immortal and that mortality was a legacy of eating from the tree of knowledge, or original sin, the resurrection restores that state some how? Well, there remains mortality, whether you believe it is a weigh station between this life and another or not, so what does that suggest? Even if Satan is a despoiler I'm not sure why the persistence of mortality is a goal for him if an after life exists and souls go there.

This perhaps makes more sense if you believe in solo scripture and scriptural literalism, which I dont.

I also believe that "the world to come" is a state of affairs in historical time too, not just an after life, if it is indeed that and I think it is impossible to know that and investigation of or proofs for that are not guaranteed and shouldnt be sought in any case, but Jesus definitely believed that. Jesus was the original progressive, there was a sense of the future, not just the present and the past.

Its that which is forgotten the most by most believers and non-believers when the account of Jesus life and ministry is eclipsed by talk of his miracles alone, the resurrection included.

 

[wool]

Because He made each of us, only the death of the Son of God could atone for the sins of all of humanity.

Through His sacrifice, everyone on Earth has access to eternal life.

So yes, the resurrection is important.

Because all is vanity.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Maybe at one point, my pursuit of Jesus was about the afterlife. With increasing faith though, I found strength and courage to live in a way that I wouldn't otherwise. It freed me to live my best life. I would feel good about my choices even if there death was the end of the road for me. This might be a more process-oriented way of looking at it.

 

[wool]

I also believe that "the world to come" is a state of affairs in historical time too, not just an after life, if it is indeed that and I think it is impossible to know that and investigation of or proofs for that are not guaranteed and shouldnt be sought in any case, but Jesus definitely believed that. Jesus was the original progressive, there was a sense of the future, not just the present and the past.

Sorry but can you be crystal clear about what you mean? I have no idea what you're saying.

 

[indra]

The twisted wreckage of permanence and platonic shapes are strewn about the coasts of Galapagos.

 

[wool]

The twisted wreckage of permanence and platonic shapes are strewn about the coasts of Galapagos.

Could someone translate this for me please?

 

[indra]

Could someone translate this for me please?

It is funny that all great myths of mankind begin with a birth atypical.

Do you feel so strongly with Christianity that you yourself are from Christ's cloth?

 

[wool]

It is funny that all great myths of mankind begin with a birth atypical.

Do you feel so strongly with Christianity that you yourself are from Christ's cloth?

My own will is hidden in Christ's.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

The twisted wreckage of permanence and platonic shapes are strewn about the coasts of Galapagos.

That was beautiful

 

[wool]

That was beautiful

Do you understand it though? Because I don't.

 

[Coriolis]

The actual life and ministry of Jesus to me are so significant that if it were all he wrote then I think it'd be sufficient, his life, ministry and interpretation of jewish traditions, seeming negative theology but which did not deny or dismiss a supernatural dimension, all resonate strongly with me. I've read some fantastic literary takes on the tale, like Kahil Gibran's, which dont say a lot about an afterlife and resurrection.

"All he wrote"? I didn't think Jesus wrote anything, at least not anything that has survived for posterity. Everything in the Bible, even the Gnostic gospels and other early writings not included in the official Bible, were written down by others, sometimes second and third hand.

In any case, I agree that the life and ministry of Jesus is what are important. Many Christians seem focused on the beginning and end of his life, because that makes good theater; good stories. The poor babe who is really a king; God become man who died and rose again. What comes between is the day to day work of healing the sick, feeding the poor, giving hope to the downtrodden, reaching out to the marginalized. Imagine if the world focused on that, and really tried to emulate it.

Awhile back, the slogan "What would Jesus Do?", often abbreviated WWJD, could be seen everywhere emblazoned on everything from coffee mugs to necklaces. The trend didn't last long. I suspect people realized how hard that was to live up to, and didn't want the constant reminder of their unwillingness to try.

What is your thinking, also could you say whether or not you a believer and whether or not the whole conquered death thing is that important or not to you.

I am a believer, in that I believe in God and have spiritual faith. The idea of conquering death is important to me only as an instructive metaphor. The basic story - God come to earth, dying, descending to the underworld and coming back to life, often complete with virgin birth - exists in other mythologies. I do not believe that the real, historical Jesus (assuming such a person even existed) did any such thing, but then I don't consider that important for us to benefit from the story, any more than there needs to have been an actual hare and tortoise, etc. for us to benefit from Aesop's Fables. The whole virgin birth/death/resurrection story seems to have been overlaid on the original accounts of Jesus the healer and teacher, perhaps in attempt to gain followers, or to use the earlier story to illustrate the significance of Jesus' teaching. Early Christians co-opted much of pre-Christian religion when it suited their purposes.

So for the original question - so if he isn't risen - I don't think it really matters. What we learn comes not from the facts of the matter, but from the moral of the story.

Because He made each of us, only the death of the Son of God could atone for the sins of all of humanity.

How did it do this?

Do you understand it though? Because I don't.

The first step in understanding is wanting to understand. That may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.

 

[wool]

How did it do this?

The Law requires a perfect life, which man on his own cannot offer. That is the gift that Christ offers, a perfect life in place of our own.

He lived a life just like ours, suffered as we suffer, and was tempted in the same ways as we are tempted, yet He never sinned. Jesus was "the lamb without blemish or spot." 1 Peter 1:19

What is impossible for us is made possible in Christ.

 

[Coriolis]

The Law requires a perfect life, which man on his own cannot offer. That is the gift that Christ offers, a perfect life in place of our own. He lived a life like ours, suffered as we do, and was tempted in all the same ways as we are, yet he never sinned. Jesus was "the lamb without blemish or spot."1 Peter 1:19

What is impossible for us is made possible in Christ.

This doesn't answer my question. Why is Christ's death necessary in order for him to offer us that gift? How does his death bring that about? What exactly does it do?

 

[wool]

This doesn't answer my question. Why is Christ's death necessary in order for him to offer us that gift? How does his death bring that about? What exactly does it do?

He was the sacrifice for the sins of the world.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Sin separates us from God who is the source of all life. Death is the natural result of seperation from the source of all life. Christ is the link between man and God.

 

[Coriolis]

He was the sacrifice for the sins of the world.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Sin separates us from God who is the source of all life. Death is the natural result of seperation from the source of all life. Christ is the link between man and God.

The highlighted makes some sense, but the rest still does not follow. What does it mean to say that Christ's sacrifice (and what was that, anyway? all the suffering he endured? we can't say his life, because he got that back in spades) was "for the sins of the world"? What does it mean to be "for our sins"?

 

[wool]

The highlighted makes some sense, but the rest still does not follow. What does it mean to say that Christ's sacrifice (and what was that, anyway? all the suffering he endured? we can't say his life, because he got that back in spades) was "for the sins of the world"? What does it mean to be "for our sins"?

His life was the sacrifice. After He died, His mission was complete. He won the great debate with satan who claimed that God's Law was unjust, and that it could never be kept. Sin could be forgiven and mercy does not destroy justice. He unmasked satan, revealing his true character as a murderer and a liar to the whole universe.

Honestly Coriolis, you can only truly understand this by accepting the gift of the Holy Spirit, which "searcheth all the deep things of God." 1 Corinthians 2:10. It will lead you to the truth if you let it.

John 14:16-17

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

I have to sleep now. G'night.

 

[Coriolis]

His life was the sacrifice. After He died, His mission was complete. He won the great debate with satan who claimed that God's Law was unjust, and that it could never be kept. Sin could be forgiven and mercy does not destroy justice. He unmasked satan, revealing his true character as a murderer and a liar to the whole universe.

So it was essentially a battle, between Christ and Satan, for the souls of humanity? How could Satan prevent God for forgiving sin, though? It seems to me that God could do that already, just by virtue of being God. No need for a death and resurrection, or epic battle in the underworld, though coming in human form to show people how to live using his own example is pretty important IME.

 

[Lark]

Lot of great posts there but I've not got the motivation to respond today.