If Christians Were Being Lied To, Would We/They Know It?

[onemoretime]

That is a natural truth.
So to believe in otherwise would be to believe in a fundamental lie, no?
and if you were to be lied to/tricked, wouldn't that be a force working against you?

On what account do you hold it to be a "natural truth"?

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

On what account do you hold it to be a "natural truth"?

On the natural order of things.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

Occam's Razor could therefore be;
Christians were lied to to keep them in bondage.

 

[wool]

John 8:44
The devil is the father of all lies.


What about the 2 knights riddle, where there are 2 knights, and 2 doors, 1 door leads to safety and the other leads to peril.
One knight can only lie, the other can only speak truth.
If the liar says the other is a lie, do you trust it?

What if God is the liar all along?

This is pointless.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

This is pointless.

How so?

Isn't it equally pointless to say 'believe in what you don't see'? - isn't it equally damaging to then follow that?

What if it's all part of the deceit against your well being used by wolfs in shepherd's clothing?

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

A virgin giving birth and people coming back to life really isn't at all hard to wrap your head around if you believe in an all-powerful God who created the world. I'm currently a creationist (though still doing some research into intelligent design and full-blown atheism and the like) so I believe God made the whole reproductive system, and thus it would be super easy for Him to say "let there be a fetus in her womb" and it was so and God saw that it was good. As for life after death, I and my similar-minded Christian peeps (though this is getting into the more debated sections of the scriptures so there's a lot of variation among denominations) believe that we are all souls inhabiting bodies, and when we die, that's just our bodies dying and then our souls go off to the afterlife.

If you want to make real waves, I'd suggest going back to creation, instead of focusing on details like the virgin birth, as that would topple the whole pyramid many Christians base their beliefs on; far more efficient than swiping bits off the top. Though your points could be more useful against Christians whose beliefs are somewhere in between intelligent design and methodological naturalism.

As for Christianity being used against Christians ... it has definitely happened in the past. The church used to be more powerful or as powerful as many monarchs, and would do all kinds of stuff like make extra money by telling followers that if they donated more to the church, that would shorten the time their already dead friends and family had to spend in that place between real life and afterlife (I apologize for not remembering the terminology).

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

Your faith could be a lie as a tool used against you, you do know that right?

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Your faith could be a lie as a tool used against you, you do know that right?

By who? Conspiracy theory aaaaaaahhh

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

By who?

Probably by the men who wrote the Bible and took over Rome.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

Personally, you lost me when you said 'I'm a creationist'
I could have tolerated virgin birth and the life eternal, but creationism, now that's just nuts. IMO.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Probably by the men who wrote the Bible and took over Rome.

Ooh, I've never thought of that one! I was mainly thinking of when people used the Bible to justify slavery and stuff like that. Tell me more.

Personally, you lost me when you said 'I'm a creationist'
I could have tolerated virgin birth and the life eternal, but creationism, now that's just nuts. IMO.

How do you think it's nuts? I'm currently looking into whether creationism is actually true by re-reading some of the arguments for it and comparing and contrasting them with the arguments against, so I'd love to hear your thoughts if you've got the time.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

Ooh, I've never thought of that one! I was mainly thinking of when people used the Bible to justify slavery and stuff like that. Tell me more.



How do you think it's nuts? I'm currently looking into whether creationism is actually true by re-reading some of the arguments for it and comparing and contrasting them with the arguments against, so I'd love to hear your thoughts if you've got the time.

Have you ever heard of The Origin of Species?
I never even heard of Creationism until I was 18 years old.
The idea of it more or less offended me; I was young, dumb and took the Origin of Species as Gospel Truth... Honest to God I had not heard of creationism at all until I was a man (Where I'm from, you're an adult in the eyes of the law when you turn 18). - That's just me; As ever; Whatever gets you through the night on that one.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Have you ever heard of The Origin of Species?
I never even heard of Creationism until I was 18 years old.
The idea of it more or less offended me; I was young, dumb and took the Origin of Species as Gospel Truth... Honest to God I had not heard of creationism at all until I was a man (Where I'm from, you're an adult in the eyes of the law when you turn 18). - That's just me; As ever; Whatever gets you through the night on that one.

I have. Okay cool thanks.

 

[Mole]

You are free to believe whatever you choose. For me, it doesn't matter that God is beyond the understanding of science.

We are not free to believe what we choose, we are free to believe what is reasonable.

For instance, Christianity teaches the doctrine of Faith and Reason, which means we are only free to believe what is reasonable.

And those who say, we are free to believe whatever we choose, are narcissists.

And narcissism is the default position of the New Age, and indeed the default position of the consumer society.

 

[Mole]

I'm currently looking into whether creationism is actually true by re-reading some of the arguments for it and comparing and contrasting them with the arguments against, so I'd love to hear your thoughts if you've got the time.

Charles Darwin wrote The Origin of Species in the middle of the 19th century, and although he got it right, he did not know how natural selection worked.

We had to wait till the middle of the 20th century for Watson and Crick's book The Double Helix to discover how natural selection works. And now we are sequencing the genome of all kinds of creatures every day.

The discovery of the genome and the sequencing of the genes shows beyond doubt that natural selection is the origin of all species, including us.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Charles Darwin wrote The Origin of Species in the middle of the 19th century, and although he got it right, he did not know how natural selection worked.

We had to wait till the middle of the 20th century for Watson and Crick's book The Double Helix to discover how natural selection works. And now we are sequencing the genome of all kinds of creatures every day.

The discovery of the genome and the sequencing of the genes shows beyond doubt that natural selection is the origin of all species, including us.

Cool thanks! I'm taking biology this semester so hopefully I'll learn more about that! Maybe I'll add The Double Helix to my reading list. As of right now I definitely believe in micro evolution, but am sceptical about species becoming other species, so definitely have got some more reading to do! I appreciate you letting me know!

 

[Mole]

Cool thanks! I'm taking biology this semester so hopefully I'll learn more about that! Maybe I'll add The Double Helix to my reading list. As of right now I definitely believe in micro evolution, but am sceptical about species becoming other species, so definitely have got some more reading to do! I appreciate you letting me know!

The reason it is hard to believe species changing into other species is because usually it takes place outside the human time frame. In other words we can't imagine the amount of time it takes, and so it is hard to believe.

However every creature that has ever lived on Earth, and those who live today, have the identical DNA. This means everything alive can be accurately placed in relationship with every other living thing.

And the physical technique we use to map the relationships of every living thing is called sequencing the genome. We can now do this cheaply and very fast.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'll just be over here, overusing the word "fuck" and the lord's name in vain, enjoying multiple orgasms and medically induced sterility, living a life of "sin" by loving LGBTQ and other "questionable" brothers and sisters, and rejoicing in the fact that I have more than 3 working synapses. Of course, the Fe in me doesn't care what your beliefs are as I accept that others are free to choose their own truths. That comment regarding synapses is aimed at the willfully ignorant and hateful. I have no apologies for them.

 

[onemoretime]

On the natural order of things.

That is both a tautology and a use of the naturalistic fallacy.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

That is both a tautology and a use of the naturalistic fallacy.

I know how babies are made and why things stay dead.

If there is something to have faith in, I doubt it would lie to us, these beliefs could be tricks played on Christians from a somewhat unholy origin.