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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Honestly guys what the difference between a country being run by the church and a democratic country with a large section of the community being of one faith?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Honestly guys what the difference between a country being run by the church and a democratic country with a large section of the community being of one faith?
    A very LARGE one.

    The differences start in the attitude of the people of the community, then proceed outward from there.

    It is rather like asking what's the difference between a democratically run smaller group (let's say 30 people), where everyone at least feels they have a voice and everyone supposedly respects other points of view, versus one where a leader does "top-down" law dictation and enforcement.

    Or like in a company that is run on a flat level as opposed to a hierarchical level. The atmosphere is very different, for one, just to start with some major points of contrast.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    A very LARGE one.

    The differences start in the attitude of the people of the community, then proceed outward from there.

    It is rather like asking what's the difference between a democratically run smaller group (let's say 30 people), where everyone at least feels they have a voice and everyone supposedly respects other points of view, versus one where a leader does "top-down" law dictation and enforcement.

    Or like in a company that is run on a flat level as opposed to a hierarchical level. The atmosphere is very different, for one, just to start with some major points of contrast.
    Sorry slightly misworded question. What's the difference in outcome?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Sorry slightly misworded question. What's the difference in outcome?
    Um... that you have one system that is essentially a top-down dictatorship, and another one that feasibly allows people to modify their viewpoints and vote differently?

    (The first is also a pressure-cooker waiting to happen, while the second offers the possibility that violence is not an unavoidable outcome.)

    In the second, people are also forced to acknowledge the right of others to speak, even if they don't much like it or waste a lot of time shouting them down. In the first system, those who dissent can be punished without repercussion.

    I don't know -- Can anything be learned from looking at China a few decades back (or even nowadays to some degree) compared to US development? (China wasn't a theocracy, but it definitely was authoritarian, prohibiting the right to practice or speak one's beliefs in the public setting under fear of punishment.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know -- Can anything be learned from looking at China a few decades back (or even nowadays to some degree) compared to US development? (China wasn't a theocracy, but it definitely was authoritarian, prohibiting the right to practice or speak one's beliefs in the public setting under fear of punishment.)
    We're sort of edging this way in the States. Have been for years....
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #16
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Um... that you have one system that is essentially a top-down dictatorship, and another one that feasibly allows people to modify their viewpoints and vote differently?

    (The first is also a pressure-cooker waiting to happen, while the second offers the possibility that violence is not an unavoidable outcome.)

    In the second, people are also forced to acknowledge the right of others to speak, even if they don't much like it or waste a lot of time shouting them down. In the first system, those who dissent can be punished without repercussion.

    I don't know -- Can anything be learned from looking at China a few decades back (or even nowadays to some degree) compared to US development? (China wasn't a theocracy, but it definitely was authoritarian, prohibiting the right to practice or speak one's beliefs in the public setting under fear of punishment.)
    WARNING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE...

    Sooo your basically saying that the illusion of choice is a better shackle for the people than actual bare faced dictatorship? Instead of saying you can't you just make it nigh impossible and thereby fool those disgruntled into silent obedience. Nice.

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    WARNING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE...

    Sooo your basically saying that the illusion of choice is a better shackle for the people than actual bare faced dictatorship? Instead of saying you can't you just make it nigh impossible and thereby fool those disgruntled into silent obedience. Nice.

    Cute... but democracy is not an illusion of choice. The choice is potentially there and could be effected if people were persuaded to believe.

    [But we'll make an exception for you if you ever visit our little community, there's a nice stock set up out front with your name on it!]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    This is an interesting read.
    article
    I've read "The God Delusion" and watch a couple of presentation by Sam Harris and they both seem to be really out of touch with what a typical person on the street believes about religion. Some of these stats seem to back this up

    "Ironically, however, both atheists and committed Christians share one unusual area of common ground: concern about superficial, inert forms of Christianity in America. There are nearly 130 million American adults who describe themselves as Christians, but who are Christian in name only; their behavior includes little related to experiencing and expressing their alleged faith in Christ."
    Do they enjoy the time wasted?

  9. #19
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Cute... but democracy is not an illusion of choice. The choice is potentially there and could be effected if people were persuaded to believe.

    [But we'll make an exception for you if you ever visit our little community, there's a nice stock set up out front with your name on it!]
    Your in the minority.. do you have a choice? HELL NO.

    If the other side are set in their view points then your talking a LOT of effort to move them. Kinda similar to the effort of regime change in the honestly oppressive countries.

    (As I said, done in the fine art of argumentativeness.. )
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Your in the minority.. do you have a choice? HELL NO. If the other side are set in their view points then your talking a LOT of effort to move them. Kinda similar to the effort of regime change in the honestly oppressive countries.
    We're not talking "likely outcome" -- we are talking "no outcome allowed by definition of the system itself" versus "potential [if unlikely] outcome allowed by definition of the system."

    And you never know will change that could impact the latter. Times change. The world changes. Disasters strike. Things change people's minds over time.

    And there's still a big difference in the atmosphere. You're looking far too hard at the surface similarities without acknowledge underlying differences that, though intangible, permeate out to impact the environment.

    (As I said, done in the fine art of argumentativeness.. )
    For me, all said in the fine art of making the discussion as vague as possible!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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