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  1. #91
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Different approach:
    -Computers are only capable of deduction
    -The brain is a computer
    -Therefore the brain is only capable of deduction
    The brain is a computer...

    LOL!!!!

    More like the computer is a product of man, and more specifically, of man's brain. I agree, that it is an iteration of nature, all manufactured goods are, but it is not, nor will ever be as intricately complex as the real thing, that being the natural source, which in this case would be the human brain.
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  2. #92
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    Some of our brains compute things.

    dissonance's deduction is totally F'd though.

  3. #93
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Yeah it seems like very few people are understanding what I'm talking about.

    @CC -- the brain is an information processing machine. All particles or atoms that make it up are subject to laws of physics. Nothing "funny" can go on.

    It can be thought of as a specific kind of computer.

    To use the argument that humans made computers so they can't be them doesn't make any sense. I'm talking about the concept of computer, not the current physical manifestations.

    A question for you, CC. What do you think of this line of reasoning?
    The brain is made up of atoms
    Those atoms follow physical laws
    Each atom can be thought of as having functional (input/output) relations
    The brain is therefore an information processing machine that has ONLY functional relations (one for each atom in this metaphor)
    So if we were to hypothetically simulate each of those functions on a computer (all input/output relations the exact same, including reaction time, body movement, etc.), do you think
    a) the computer can't think, it is merely an automaton.
    b) the computer literally thinks, because thinking is defined as a certain complex input/output relation (my interpretation).

    Another question in a similar line of reasoning:
    How do you know that other people think? You don't have access to the inner workings of their body. You don't know if they're made of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen or synthetic materials. If, hypothetically, there was a man-made computer inside of them, but artificial skin that looked the same, how would you tell the difference? Couldn't everyone in the world besides you just be a machine? Where I'm going is this: you define them as "thinking" and "feeling" beings because they respond in certain ways to stimulus. That is your definition of thinking and feeling. Or sentience.

    So if a computer had the same input output relations, would it not literally think?

  4. #94
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    The brain is a computer...

    LOL!!!!
    @U!

    It is. If you disagree, you're wrong. It really truly is that simple. It's not an analogy, it's fucking plain truth: Brain = Computer.

    More like the computer is a product of man
    And, consequently, as well as naturally, evolution.
    I agree, that it is an iteration of nature, all manufactured goods are, but it is not, nor will ever be as intricately complex as the real thing
    Well... that's true, but Nintendo made the Wii backwards compatible. How'ja know God didn't?

    In any case, you're deluding yourself.
    that being the natural source, which in this case would be the human brain.
    You've a lot of (ungrounded) faith in that digital, electrical mechanism stored up in that bone bowl of yours don't you?
    we fukin won boys

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    It is. If you disagree, you're wrong. It really truly is that simple. It's not an analogy, it's fucking plain truth: Brain = Computer.
    Lol proof by assertion, try justifying yourself just a little bit, statements like this piss me off. "Its plain fucking truth", wow, don't you wish it was that easy for every argument? Try not saying that ever again please, it will do you alot of good. "Its not an analogy", really.. cmon, you're not that stupid are you?

    Computer ~(similar to, not equal) Brain. Why? Because we made it that way, but it will never possess certain attributes that a Brain has so you can never call it a true brain. Computers possess the logical/mathematical/data processing aspects of the brain but not much else, the brain contains these as well (not quite as good or as fast) and also has many other functions (you should be able to think of a few, and also being able to asking yourself what a brain can do shows a large difference between the brain and a computer). Also that whole thing about a Brain being made of Living material while a Computer is made of Non-Living material does not allow you to state them as Equal. Also, brains require fuel, energy from what we eat, and this we can obtain for ourselves (given that we are not in infant stage, its only fair to not bring that up because computers are never in an infant stage). Computers cannot operate like that, they require electricity that they cannot obtain for themselves, sure we can slap a solar panel on it or something like that, but it Initially has no fuel, we have to initially give it its fuel (then depending on the computer it may be able to get power for itself after its already up and running). Brains also develop over time, they grow and change. You can turn a computer on and off arbitrarily. You can only turn off a brain once (except for in extreme circumstances where doctors manage to get it back on).

    Computers Imitate brains, they are not brains.

    And, consequently, as well as naturally, evolution.
    Just because we were spawned from Evolution, and we made Computers, doesn't necessarily mean that Computers are a spawn of Evolution. You essentially stated that Computers can be a Natural product of Evolution. Computers cannot come into existence by themselves, they are made of complex machinery that are unchanging unless we act upon them. However, give a cell a few billion years and its amazing what it can do.

  6. #96
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    There is nothing non-deterministic in our brains; how then, could they generate "mutations" or anything like that?
    Again I refer you to the distinction between causal reasons and logical reasons. I think that you are conflating the two.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #97
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Again I refer you to the distinction between causal reasons and logical reasons. I think that you are conflating the two.
    We're getting caught up in the limits of words here.

    Forget inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning.

    I'm talking about deductive processes.

    Here's an example of inductive reasoning --
    The light is on
    Therefore the switch is up

    This is, by definition, inductive reasoning. I get that. But it can ALSO be represented as a deductive process with the following hidden premises:
    "Of the times lights have been on -- 90% of the time, the switch is up"
    "If there's a 90% chance of something, assume it's true"

    Combine those premises with the premise that "the light is on", and you can deductively conclude that the switch is up. Based on ALL of the premises, the conclusion 100% follows.

    Yes, we call it inductive reasoning. I get that definition. It is ALSO a deductive process.

    My argument is that for every single "guess" or "intuition" or "induction" or whatever, you can figure out extra premises until the "new" information deductively follows from all the premises. The definitions for "guess" or whatever still hold; they're still true. I'm just saying that those PROCESSES can be thought of as deductive.

    Our consciousness of all the premises is irrelevant to my argument.

  8. #98
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Lol proof by assertion, try justifying yourself just a little bit
    I have. In another thread. How about, instead, you research my proposition.

    You're not a publishing firm -- I don't have to prove shit to you. I'm offering an idea, not appealing to your approval.

    statements like this piss me off.
    Well that's not far from idiotic. If I'm right, regardless of whether or not I've justified myself, I'm still right.

    "Its plain fucking truth", wow, don't you wish it was that easy for every argument? Try not saying that ever again please, it will do you alot of good. "Its not an analogy", really.. cmon, you're not that stupid are you?
    Are you? I'm goddamn right. Look it up if you don't believe me, but don't try to shove off a bunch of proofing responsibilities on to me. If you wanna know the truth, you'll hear what I have to say, and check to see if it's true. If it's not, then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

    Computer ~(similar to, not equal) Brain. Why? Because we made it that way, but it will never possess certain attributes that a Brain has so you can never call it a true brain.
    Did I?
    Computers possess the logical/mathematical/data processing aspects of the brain but not much else
    Everything in the brain is done by digital logic. You're confusing conscious reasoning with specific minute synapse reaction.

    And you're calling me dumb...
    Also that whole thing about a Brain being made of Living material while a Computer is made of Non-Living material does not allow you to state them as Equal.
    Living material? Do you think the molecules in a brain have different qualities of those in a computer? It's all electrons and protons. So a brain biodegreades more quickly. That's only because there are bacteria who use the same atoms in their own life. If we had silicone based life forms, we'd have to worry about our semiconductors being eaten too.

    Living material...
    Also, brains require fuel, energy from what we eat, and this we can obtain for ourselves (given that we are not in infant stage, its only fair to not bring that up because computers are never in an infant stage). Computers cannot operate like that, they require electricity that they cannot obtain for themselves, sure we can slap a solar panel on it or something like that, but it Initially has no fuel
    And just where do you think we got our fuel from? It had to come from somewhere -- think: Womb. Womb is a factory, which fills up the battery charge.
    we have to initially give it its fuel (then depending on the computer it may be able to get power for itself after its already up and running). Brains also develop over time, they grow and change.
    So because a computer isn't equipped with a billion years of self-repair functions, it can't share a verb?
    You can turn a computer on and off arbitrarily. You can only turn off a brain once (except for in extreme circumstances where doctors manage to get it back on).
    That we know of currently. But actually, if you know anything about physics, you know that there is a way to restart a brain, we just haven't figured out precisely how to do it, probably because it's just really really hard/complicated.


    Computers Imitate brains, they are not brains.
    PCs imitate part of a brain. The brain is a computer.
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  9. #99
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    You essentially stated that Computers can be a Natural product of Evolution. Computers cannot come into existence by themselves
    Neither could humans.

    they are made of complex machinery that are unchanging unless we act upon them.
    Interesting definition of unchanging you're using. Everything your computer does is a physical change in its internal system.

    Additionally, we can program learning algorithms into computers -- they rewrite their own programming based on data and calculated trends.

    We could attach a camera to a computer and have it change things about its programming based on that input.

    We could attach a microphone, blah blah.

    You get my point (I hope).

    We are computers (in the broad sense of the word -- information processing machines) with specific kinds of input systems, and specific kinds of processing algorithms.

    Computers and humans need energy -- we could conceivably make a machine that extracted chemicals out of similar kinds of food, and moves around the environment seeking out those kinds of food (it would be incredibly hard, but definitely not theoretically impossible).

    Plus, if you actually listened to my "everything is a deductive process" argument, you could hopefully see how even intuition could be programmed into a computer.

    Again, how would you argue that the brain is capable of something that a computer is literally incapable of doing? I'd like an example of a process that can not be thought of as input/output relations.

    However, give a cell a few billion years and its amazing what it can do.
    Our race has been "programmed" by our surroundings. A computer is programmed by its surroundings...

  10. #100
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    To sort of take this thread in a different direction, how would we sort of prematurely describe the N or S web of premises?

    Is it possible that different modes of deduction are at play with each of the perceiving functions?

    I say premature because I'm not necessarily interested in a clear distinct "it would be represented by them choosing this path and concluding with this" but more so how would they approach the method of "induction" or if their can't be anything drawn from that maybe instead intelligence.

    It seems when you are in conversation with someone who is obviously extremely intelligent they have this exceptional ability to see what seems like impossible premises and from there deduce a very clear and concise conclusion. I think that to me was a good way at sort of seeing how induction really seems to just be a deductive process just manifested in a different way.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

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