User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 46

  1. #1
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w3
    Posts
    951

    Default The Fruitlessness of Arguments

    I assume it must be the same for everyone. You come up with the perfect reasoning to support your argument and it is met with what only seems like blind ignorance or irrationality. Of course the other person probably sees it that way to.

    I long for the day when in conversation and it becomes a passionate discussion that the other person doesn't give way to stubbornness, egotism or ignorance and suddenly something clicks and they say, "I see yes you're right actually all this time I've been wrong. Thanks for the insight." Of course that will never happen because they have no doubt gotten to the point where they are now basing all meaning in their life on being right and to admit they are wrong would be like admitting that they are a failure. Then what would their life be worth? It's such a shame, because if we were all prepared to see the pointlessness of it there could very well be a leap in human evolution, that might just lead to less violence in the world. But just the gains on the smaller scale would be a wonderful thing.

  2. #2
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    I think you're way off.
    Ive only ever embraced argument fir the sake of insight.







    lol

  3. #3
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,516

    Default

    But to your credit, at least you don't to off about how it's so counterproductive cause people get "turned off"...
    Those people are a waste of time to begin with then. And if they have anything to say, they ought to be a writer instead.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    I think of conversations as an exchange of useful information, a way of telling each other who we are or a way to pass some time with others and don't care much about whether people are "wrong" or "right." I care more whether they're interesting to me.

    The practicing of debate skills I sometimes see here looks more like fencing to me than spending leisure time with another human being.

    It mystifies me. When people make too much of a show of flexing their brain power they end up looking foolish to me. Like holding up a sign that shouts, "Look at me - how smart I am!"

    To me it looks like pseudo-intelligence because what they say and how they say it may indicate brilliance but in social settings it looks like ignorant and humorous self-aggrandizement.

    I read for the entertainment value and the insight it gives me into the way different types communicate and drift off amused and puzzled at what passes for entertainment to other types.

    However if someone approaches it by prefacing it with an introduction which indicates that they want to play - let's see who can win - then I am less judgemental about it. Have at it! And have fun seeing who can win.

    I think it's that sneaky element that some Thinkers practice where they try to catch another in a misstatement and then attempt to humilate them. That always looks like sadism. GOTCHA, you fool! Like that.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #5
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    With arguments, you get to:

    Stimulate the mind
    Learn about people
    Re-work and strengthen your positions
    Learn more about issues
    Have satisfaction when occasionally the other person will admit to being wrong or will change their mind
    Affirmation of ones intelligence
    Learn social behavior
    etc..

  6. #6
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    Yes, I agree that arguments have value and their place.

    What I don't, and probably never will, understand that for some people each discussion seems to be about who is right.

    And no one wants to be wrong so these things get endlessly entangled. If someone has to be a loser it becomes a useless exercise in exerting one's superiority over another.

    Please say more Lithium. Are you saying that if just one person in a two person discussion would defer to the superior of the two we'd have a more peaceful environment?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #7
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Yes, I agree that arguments have value and their place.

    What I don't, and probably never will, understand that for some people each discussion seems to be about who is right.

    And no one wants to be wrong so these things get endlessly entangled. If someone has to be a loser it becomes a useless exercise in exerting one's superiority over another.
    It can definitely get competitive. But essentially, all arguments are about who is right and who is wrong. It can be frustrating when people won't budge, and to the outside observer these kind of debates might seem pointless, but in reality, one side is usually winning, and that can be satisfying; for the person winning.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    Okay. I see that.

    My thought is when there is no agreement on what is actually taking place then the kind of game one is playing looks like something other than innocent.

    I wasn't clear?

    Like I said - "Let's argue and see who can win is different than, "Come talk with me (But I'm secretly going to try to defeat/humiliate you to satisfy my ego.)"
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #9
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    I assume it must be the same for everyone. You come up with the perfect reasoning to support your argument and it is met with what only seems like blind ignorance or irrationality. Of course the other person probably sees it that way to.

    I long for the day when in conversation and it becomes a passionate discussion that the other person doesn't give way to stubbornness, egotism or ignorance and suddenly something clicks and they say, "I see yes you're right actually all this time I've been wrong. Thanks for the insight." Of course that will never happen because they have no doubt gotten to the point where they are now basing all meaning in their life on being right and to admit they are wrong would be like admitting that they are a failure. Then what would their life be worth? It's such a shame, because if we were all prepared to see the pointlessness of it there could very well be a leap in human evolution, that might just lead to less violence in the world. But just the gains on the smaller scale would be a wonderful thing.
    We get exactly the same argument against democracy here in Australia.

    The bien-pensants constantly tell us that debate in our nine Parliaments is childish, rude, insulting and would not be tolerated in a two year old.

    And the bien-pensants tell us that if we could just move beyond debate, we would be making an evolutionary leap.

    And it would be, "a wonderful thing", perhaps utopian.

    But we are the sixth oldest democracy in the world and we have heard this argument many times.

    But we are reluctant to sacrifice our democracy for utopia.

  10. #10
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Like I said - "Let's argue and see who can win is different than, "Come talk with me (But I'm secretly going to try to defeat/humiliate you to satisfy my ego.)"
    The later just sounds like someone being an asshole....but yeah, assholes do like to argue.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENTP] The role of argumentation in ENTPs
    By Udog in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 09-18-2009, 02:08 PM
  2. The purpose of pain?
    By Martoon in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 08-03-2009, 09:47 PM
  3. [MBTItm] The merit of stuffed animals
    By nightning in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 09-29-2007, 10:49 AM
  4. Web 2.0 - the death of culture?
    By Langrenus in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-04-2007, 08:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO