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The Fruitlessness of Arguments

TickTock

Mud and rain and chaos...
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I assume it must be the same for everyone. You come up with the perfect reasoning to support your argument and it is met with what only seems like blind ignorance or irrationality. Of course the other person probably sees it that way to.

I long for the day when in conversation and it becomes a passionate discussion that the other person doesn't give way to stubbornness, egotism or ignorance and suddenly something clicks and they say, "I see yes you're right actually all this time I've been wrong. Thanks for the insight." Of course that will never happen because they have no doubt gotten to the point where they are now basing all meaning in their life on being right and to admit they are wrong would be like admitting that they are a failure. Then what would their life be worth? It's such a shame, because if we were all prepared to see the pointlessness of it there could very well be a leap in human evolution, that might just lead to less violence in the world. But just the gains on the smaller scale would be a wonderful thing.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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I think you're way off.
Ive only ever embraced argument fir the sake of insight.







lol
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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But to your credit, at least you don't to off about how it's so counterproductive cause people get "turned off"...
Those people are a waste of time to begin with then. And if they have anything to say, they ought to be a writer instead.
 

Anja

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I think of conversations as an exchange of useful information, a way of telling each other who we are or a way to pass some time with others and don't care much about whether people are "wrong" or "right." I care more whether they're interesting to me.

The practicing of debate skills I sometimes see here looks more like fencing to me than spending leisure time with another human being.

It mystifies me. When people make too much of a show of flexing their brain power they end up looking foolish to me. Like holding up a sign that shouts, "Look at me - how smart I am!"

To me it looks like pseudo-intelligence because what they say and how they say it may indicate brilliance but in social settings it looks like ignorant and humorous self-aggrandizement.

I read for the entertainment value and the insight it gives me into the way different types communicate and drift off amused and puzzled at what passes for entertainment to other types.

However if someone approaches it by prefacing it with an introduction which indicates that they want to play - let's see who can win - then I am less judgemental about it. Have at it! And have fun seeing who can win.

I think it's that sneaky element that some Thinkers practice where they try to catch another in a misstatement and then attempt to humilate them. That always looks like sadism. GOTCHA, you fool! Like that.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
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With arguments, you get to:

Stimulate the mind
Learn about people
Re-work and strengthen your positions
Learn more about issues
Have satisfaction when occasionally the other person will admit to being wrong or will change their mind
Affirmation of ones intelligence
Learn social behavior
etc..
 

Anja

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Yes, I agree that arguments have value and their place.

What I don't, and probably never will, understand that for some people each discussion seems to be about who is right.

And no one wants to be wrong so these things get endlessly entangled. If someone has to be a loser it becomes a useless exercise in exerting one's superiority over another.

Please say more Lithium. Are you saying that if just one person in a two person discussion would defer to the superior of the two we'd have a more peaceful environment?
 

ajblaise

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Yes, I agree that arguments have value and their place.

What I don't, and probably never will, understand that for some people each discussion seems to be about who is right.

And no one wants to be wrong so these things get endlessly entangled. If someone has to be a loser it becomes a useless exercise in exerting one's superiority over another.

It can definitely get competitive. But essentially, all arguments are about who is right and who is wrong. It can be frustrating when people won't budge, and to the outside observer these kind of debates might seem pointless, but in reality, one side is usually winning, and that can be satisfying; for the person winning.
 

Anja

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Okay. I see that.

My thought is when there is no agreement on what is actually taking place then the kind of game one is playing looks like something other than innocent.

I wasn't clear?

Like I said - "Let's argue and see who can win is different than, "Come talk with me (But I'm secretly going to try to defeat/humiliate you to satisfy my ego.)"
 

Mole

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I assume it must be the same for everyone. You come up with the perfect reasoning to support your argument and it is met with what only seems like blind ignorance or irrationality. Of course the other person probably sees it that way to.

I long for the day when in conversation and it becomes a passionate discussion that the other person doesn't give way to stubbornness, egotism or ignorance and suddenly something clicks and they say, "I see yes you're right actually all this time I've been wrong. Thanks for the insight." Of course that will never happen because they have no doubt gotten to the point where they are now basing all meaning in their life on being right and to admit they are wrong would be like admitting that they are a failure. Then what would their life be worth? It's such a shame, because if we were all prepared to see the pointlessness of it there could very well be a leap in human evolution, that might just lead to less violence in the world. But just the gains on the smaller scale would be a wonderful thing.

We get exactly the same argument against democracy here in Australia.

The bien-pensants constantly tell us that debate in our nine Parliaments is childish, rude, insulting and would not be tolerated in a two year old.

And the bien-pensants tell us that if we could just move beyond debate, we would be making an evolutionary leap.

And it would be, "a wonderful thing", perhaps utopian.

But we are the sixth oldest democracy in the world and we have heard this argument many times.

But we are reluctant to sacrifice our democracy for utopia.
 

ajblaise

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Like I said - "Let's argue and see who can win is different than, "Come talk with me (But I'm secretly going to try to defeat/humiliate you to satisfy my ego.)"

The later just sounds like someone being an asshole....but yeah, assholes do like to argue.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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To argue is to remain idle. To stall perhaps.

Avoiding argument however, inevitably leads to regression and forgetfulness.
 

Lateralus

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I love debate and I rarely run into your problem, in person. I'm very good at persuasion. Online is a different story. :rolleyes:
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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The OP is markedly non-NF.
Their typical stance against arguing is that it creates disharmony and unhappiness, often being unable to see past the ill-concieved notion that everyone wants to be everyone elses friend.
The OP simply, and accurately, for the most part, noticed that in a debate, no one listens long enough to fully understand the opposition, having busied themselves too thoroughly in diagramming their own unenlightemed point.

You display decent cooperation, though not in argument form in your rudimentary diagnosis of NF, which I presume to be more in line with what textbook typologists like Keirsey would say -- NFs being opposed to disagreement, where rationals value it.
Before learning about typology, I never even noticed how argumentative I was, and if certainly wasn't something I valued.

The precise negative of my situation is likely true of many most NFs.
 
T

ThatGirl

Guest
I think that the biggest mistake rookies make is going in just debating, it is best to just let debate happen naturaly.

*partially plegeruised"

Being an ENTP everyone thinks I just love to argue and debate every little thing, but I just tell them "That's Bullshit! I do not!"

"Give me three reasons why you would think that"
 

Anja

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Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.

It isn't about understanding, about hearing another, about stopping to think. It's more about one-up-manship. It's not communication. It's an empty exercise in showing off one's intellect and no improvements are possible. People get caught up in arguing about the arguing, definitions, whose defintion is better, etc. Everyone striving for the superior position. Metadebate. Amusing, but fruitless.

Maybe that's what Lithium is saying?
 

ajblaise

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Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.

I think this extends to more than just argument and to communication in general, or maybe just faux-communication.

I'm reminded of a time when I walked past a group of Long Islanders.. everyone of them was talking to each other but no one was listening. This is typical for them, but this time it was so comical.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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The later just sounds like someone being an asshole....but yeah, assholes do like to argue.

No they don't.

I think that the biggest mistake rookies make is going in just debating, it is best to just let debate happen naturaly.

I think it depends on what your goal is. If you just want to play with ideas and language, then it doesn't matter what you know, because you're not trying to win or learn, just mess around.

Being an ENTP everyone thinks I just love to argue and debate every little thing, but I just tell them "That's Bullshit! I do am not!"

FYP :ninja:
 

ygolo

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Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.

It isn't about understanding, about hearing another, about stopping to think. It's more about one-up-manship. It's not communication. It's an empty exercise in showing off one's intellect and no improvements are possible. People get caught up in arguing about the arguing, definitions, whose defintion is better, etc. Everyone striving for the superior position. Metadebate. Amusing, but fruitless.

Maybe that's what Lithium is saying?

I hope you find some value in argument of some form.

There is a big difference between "having" an argument, and "making" one. The skills of making valid arguments are indispensable to progress in the world.

It saddens me that so many people take-up such a negative view of debate.

Every scientific, mathematical, or engineering paper comprises an argument.

The debate about definitions, standards, and ground-rules--the meta-debates are also incredibly vital to being correct.

It matters if those papers are right or not. It matters a lot.

A good paper presents strong arguments with a good thesis and good evidence to back up that thesis. The thesis of the paper may be a scientific hypothesis which was proven or dis-proven, a mathematical theorem proven or dis-proven, a novel engineering design proven or dis-proven, or something else.

Most of human progress comes about due to the ability of people to reason.

To reason is to make an argument to oneself.

Nature cares not about our feelings about what is right. But if want stuff to work, we need to get things correct.
 

Mole

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Ressentiment and Reason

I hope you find some value in argument of some form.

There is a big difference between "having" an argument, and "making" one. The skills of making valid arguments are indispensable to progress in the world.

It saddens me that so many people take-up such a negative view of debate.

Every scientific, mathematical, or engineering paper comprises an argument.

The debate about definitions, standards, and ground-rules--the meta-debates are also incredibly vital to being correct.

It matters if those papers are right or not. It matters a lot.

A good paper presents strong arguments with a good thesis and good evidence to back up that thesis. The thesis of the paper may be a scientific hypothesis which was proven or dis-proven, a mathematical theorem proven or dis-proven, a novel engineering design proven or dis-proven, or something else.

Most of human progress comes about due to the ability of people to reason.

To reason is to make an argument to oneself.

Nature cares not about our feelings about what is right. But if want stuff to work, we need to get things correct.

Ygolo is completely right.

But what is more difficult to explain is the blank eyed hatred of reason.

And the hatred of evidence and reason has a long history.

It goes back to Aristotle and the Church, moving through fascism and communism and onto islamism.

And in the plentiful and free West, the hatred of reason takes the form Romanticism and the New Age cult and our very own MBTI.

And the hatred of reason is based on ressentiment, the bone deep - no the bone marrow deep - hatred of life.

Ressentiment is so ugly it must conceal itself from the individual, but shows its face in cults.

Ressentiment is implacable and paranoid and so cannot be reached by reason.

Ressentiment is a clear and present danger to reason.
 
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