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  1. #31
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Taken from my last post:

    "You display great cooperation in positively demonstrating the OP's"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Taken from my last post:

    "You display great cooperation in positively demonstrating the OP's"
    This is certainly a fruitful argument if I've ever had one. That's an extremely vague statement, I'm sure so that any specific response could be countered with something to the effect of "No, Stupid, I didn't mean that." I'll pass.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Thank you, ygolo, for taking the time to set you and me on the path of understanding. You listened! Sending a gold star

    But while you guys sort this potential tangle out I must take time to find a small furry creature which my cat has brought in for my approval. First things first.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #34
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    This is certainly a fruitful argument if I've ever had one. That's an extremely vague statement, I'm sure so that any specific response could be countered with something to the effect of "No, Stupid, I didn't mean that." I'll pass.
    No, stupid, that's not what I meant.
    I speculate you feel a sense of accomplishment for your work here. Well you should. You've both agreed with, and contrarily demonstrated the original post.

    You're more fun than tic-tac-toe y'know that Senor Flak?

  5. #35
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The purpose of free and open debate is to avoid group think.

    In fact it only takes one dissenting voice to break the trance of group think.

    A study of the Bay of Pigs disaster shows it was a result of group think.

    And group think can happen to anyone even at the highest level, for instance the group think that led to the Bay of Pigs disaster was led by JFK.

    So the problem is that group think is an ever present temptation.

    And we must keep reminding ourselves that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

    This is vitally important in a cult like the New Age and MBTI.

    Where it is quite natural to see the dissenting voice as bad mannered or rude, or an attention seeker, or as disloyal to the group.

    And how natural to pointedly ask the dissenter, "Why are you here?". With the implication that the dissenter has no right to be here and should leave.

    And of course attempts are made to shame the dissenter.

    Instead we should demonstrate that dissenters are the salt of the earth.

  6. #36
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    Default Values and Emotional Intelligence

    And the problem is that values compete with each other.

    So the more you have of one value the less you have of another.

    So it is natural to feel that your value is right and the competing value is wrong.

    And it is natural to feel strongly about your value.

    So a good debater not only has intellectual intelligence but emotional intelligence as well.

  7. #37
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Arguments are a good thing, I don't dispute that. They are a good thing when they work well and there have been some good posts highlighting the benefits. 'When they work well' being the key statement. The OP is pivoting on when they don't and the problems that arise in conversation and then it becomes pointless.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    Arguments are a good thing, I don't dispute that. They are a good thing when they work well and there have been some good posts highlighting the benefits. 'When they work well' being the key statement. The OP is pivoting on when they don't and the problems that arise in conversation and then it becomes pointless.
    It is an interesting problem Lithium. And you are quite right - there does come a point where further argument is fruitless.

    And you are right it is frustrating to be in a pointless argument. And the frustration leads to anger and the anger leads to insults and insults can lead to blows.

    But I am not sure what you want at this point. Do you wish to explore how and where arguments break down? Or do you wish to explore ways of structuring arguments so that they have an outcome? Or do you wish to explore entirely different forms of discourse apart from argument?

    I must admit I am rather keen on different forms of discourse.

    It seems to me that argument is a tried and true form of discourse that is primarily defensive in nature. In other words argument is a form of socially sanctioned psychological defence.

    Argument is a very familiar dance. And who wants to learn new steps?

    However it is important to remember that there are other discourses that are quite different from argument.

    Perhaps you have asked a very important question here.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    I assume it must be the same for everyone. You come up with the perfect reasoning to support your argument and it is met with what only seems like blind ignorance or irrationality. Of course the other person probably sees it that way to.

    I long for the day when in conversation and it becomes a passionate discussion that the other person doesn't give way to stubbornness, egotism or ignorance and suddenly something clicks and they say, "I see yes you're right actually all this time I've been wrong. Thanks for the insight." Of course that will never happen because they have no doubt gotten to the point where they are now basing all meaning in their life on being right and to admit they are wrong would be like admitting that they are a failure. Then what would their life be worth? It's such a shame, because if we were all prepared to see the pointlessness of it there could very well be a leap in human evolution, that might just lead to less violence in the world. But just the gains on the smaller scale would be a wonderful thing.
    Yeah, I am thinking the answer lies in the form. So that as long as we use the form of argument, we will run into, "stubborness, egotism, ignorance and pointlessness".

    So to avoid the result we avoid the form.

    And the easiest way to avoid the form is to choose another form entirely.

    Perhaps you would like to discuss the alternative forms to the form of argument.

    Yes?

  10. #40
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yeah, I am thinking the answer lies in the form. So that as long as we use the form of argument, we will run into, "stubborness, egotism, ignorance and pointlessness".

    So to avoid the result we avoid the form.

    And the easiest way to avoid the form is to choose another form entirely.

    Perhaps you would like to discuss the alternative forms to the form of argument.

    Yes?
    I did not set out to find an alternative the problem often lies in the person with the weaker ability in constructive communication. As you mention it though I would like to gain a better ability in communication that would avoid this breakdown. If it is possible. Addressing the form is a good start, but where to go from there? Often when people reach the point of breakdown, it is like communicating with a wall. The other thing is that it is not always the words themselves that are of importance but an underlying deeper problem. Sometimes it is a desire to be heard, sometimes it is a willingness to feel important, which ultimately comes down to a fear of death. But that is the deepest of meanings, the first surface of deeper meaning is related to the ego and the one that they are using to communicate.

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